Yep you are right. In Europe sports and sports clubs are a lot more structured than I have seen here in the States, and therefore the youth is prepped and coached a lot better (in general) than our kids; be it soccer or triathlon.

Personally I would like to see a novice division or ability division in addition to or instead of the age grouping for youth races. Perhaps something for the USAT to look into with a youth development program; I had a talk with Greg Welsh last summer regarding the massive popularity and participation of Aussies and Kiwis in the sport. It is just incredible, and like our B ball players they are national sports heroes.

So what can we do here in the States? I don't have the answers, but it is something that needs a hard looking into IMO.

But it is something that has bugging me for a while as well;wll that was my .02

Henk

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Alex Jonker

What's interesting about Australia is that although it's a sports crazy country, there are no professional sports teams there. Their heros are genuine amateurs in many cases. Maybe that's why the Aussies are so sports active in as much as they can relate to their sports heros. In contrast we have spoiled brat multi-millionaire football, basketball, hockey and baseball players with a nation of coach potatoes that watches sports on TV. That's why I no longer watch or support any of these sports.

I am not entirely sure that the statement there are no professional teams in Oz is true.

Certainly their Rugby, Cricket and Oz rules football players are if anything amateurs in the absolutely loosest definition of the word.

You are right about the difference their though, adults will continue to play those sports even if they never have a chance to play professionally.

Another difference is that I dont think such an emphasis is placed upon the College sports system. As in europe, kids are developed through clubs, and especially in soccer you are a pro by the time you are 16.

So the 11-13 year olds go 100 m shorter swim, 2k longer bike and the same run.

I don't see a big deal here.

Either way, Libby Burrel from usa is wokring to standardize the junio level races around the world.

I strongly suspect that the reason us distances are the way they are is because someone did it that way one day and that was that. No real reason why.

As these things go, if you'd like them to be longer. Put one on and make iit whatever distance you like.

Where did you get the "European" distances?

U23 World Championships (17-23) is draft legal, Olympic distance, e.g. 1500, 40k, 10k

16-19 Junior World Championships is draft legal, sprint, e.g. 750, 20k, 5k

There are no "European" or international (i.e. ITU) championships for under 16yrs.

USA Triathlon championships are the EXACT same distances, and the 13-15 National Championships are: 400, 11k, 2.5k

If you look at triathlators, or any European country's triathlon websites, you'll find that the "youth" triathlon distances of local and regional triathlons are essentially the same as in the U.S..

So... "our" races are the same in distance (and drafting) to the "European" ones.

The problem does not lie in the distances, nor does it lie in the "structure", or lack thereof here in the U.S. (I am Dutch, and I don't find any more structure to sports in Holland than I do in the US, except that basically Dutch girls play field hockey from birth, and boys play soccer).

If "the US doesn't have any good junior athletes", which country does? Reviewing the records it appears that it's pretty much a different country every year and not one country dominates in the junior ranks.

Your comment is a little tough on the US junior triathletes, but admittedly, certainly one "problem" here is the choice or variety of sports (that's part of our "freedom-democracy-melting pot-thing"), so as you go down the totem-pole the "lesser-sports" get less attention and financing than the "big-3"... football, baseball and basketball.

What's the solution?

I don't know. I'm open for suggestions.

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http://irondad06.blogspot.com/

http://irondad.blogspot.com/

I'd say the Dutch soccer programs are incredibly well structured just like in the UK.

Kids are put through them from an early age.

Here it's LL, then travelling, then prehaps HS and travelling, then college and then maybe the pro's.

Friends that played soccer in the UK had already been selected by 13-14 years old. Same for swimming, tennis, cricket and field hockey.

As an Aussie who teachs sport management and sport marketing at an Australian university, I think I can help calrify a few things.

I'll endorse Andrew's comments about professional team sport in Australia - I think Cerveloguy was wide of the mark. Athletes who compete at the elite/pro level in team sports such as Rugby League, Rugby Union, Australian Football, Soccer (our best 120 or so players are in Europe but tthat is another story altogether) are all paid enough to concentrate solely on their lives of a pro athlete. Some teams, encourage their athletes to have employment outside of the pro sport so that they do not become stale (some coaches refer to it as playstation syndrome as all the athletes do all day is sit around and play playstation), whilst others are concerned about the need for the players to have an identity outside of their pro athlete status and to prepare for life after fooball'. What do our elite team sport athletes get paid in Australia? Well it varies and it depends on whether you include their endorsement income etc. Suffice to say in the AFL (the number one pro sport league in Australia) that the best are approaching $1M and the lowest would be on $60-70K - so its enought for comfortable living but it is fair to say that most can't retire after the pro careers are over. It certainly is NOT in the millions of dollars we associate with european soccer and US team sports....In fact the salary cap for the AFL is around the $5M mark - that is for a list of just over 40 players.

Right now I can't think of any genuine elite athlete in a mainstream sport that does not earn a living from their sport. You might be amazed at how much money some (but certainly not all) of our swimmers make - Thorpe, Hacket, Huegill are genuine household names. Thorpe's income is measured in the millions - and it is probably greater than five million in a good year.

Andrew makes a valid point that alot of Aussies will still play 'full-on' versions of their sport at local levels - what I think might be called the recreational level in the US. The point here is that the rules are not watered down for these 'weekend warriors' (e.g. baseball vs slowpitch)...There is not too much distinction here in Australia between adult leagues and recreational leagues.

Any other questions on Australian sport, just fire away....

Well given that we took an Oz swim coach after we spent the best part of 10 years destroying our own system things are slowly turning around.

Cricket in the UK is pretty much the same as Oz, one day rules, adults play 50 over games, bouncers and all.

There is NO comparable system in the US for post college athletes that dont make it.

Running is starting to develop programs such as Hansons, Nike, Addidas and Fila but if you are a 320 lb line men and you dont get drafted. Get a cardiologist.

Masters swimming comes close but for the big 4 it's not the same at all as amateur Soccer, Cricket or Rugby.

Bosnich was really one of the first big household names from Oz to go to the top in the UK. It was Bosnich right, played for Villa? moved to Unt?

Cricket and Rugby league and union are both VERY professional globally, so much so that Oz players head north in the summer and Northerners head south in the winter to play 12 months a year.

Shame the UK did not spend more of that lottery money on a AIS equivalent. I was talking to my old swim coach when I was home at Xmas. She's sent three of four kids to the Oly trials, and has a kid now that could go but simply cant get pool time to train.........

So your concern about "internationalism" and this perceived lack of "nationalism", at least thats what I read in to you post would extend as far as being happier to lose in the first round of the World Cup with a Dutch Coach as opposed to making the final with an Englishman or a Frenchman just as an example.......

You would rather have bad Dutch coaches losing than good American ones winning?

Clearly you need to examine your trekkie comment because certainly in my mind that dont make no sense.

This obviously seems to get you a little worked up.

Firstly I NEVER said Holland had an ideal system. If Dutch kids are getting in to US colleges to swim they are doing something right, may not be perfect but there is a system in place that is allowing this to happen.

Secondly, as to this "obligation" you seem to think that Rabobank should labor under that there is some sort of obligation to ride Dutch cyclists that will lose as opposed to foreigners that win, that does not make any sense. Its like your coaching comment.

The current British swimming coach is an Australian, under his development Britain is supposedly the most improved national team in the world.

Sven, the british football coach suffered from the same kind of national skepticism that you express about foreigners and people were outraged that he might end up at United.

If you have the chance to bring in world class talent and learn from it you'd be a fool not to.

Back to improving our juniors... anyone have any suggestions or insight (perhaps from personal experience) ?

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http://irondad06.blogspot.com/

http://irondad.blogspot.com/

Clearly any ITU triathlete is going to come from a swimming background.

If you are talking about developing youth programs to win at the youth level I suppose their are all sorts of options open to you but thats not really the long term goal I would hope.

If on the other hand you want to develop a squad of world class adult triathletes they should be swimmers and the programs are there for them especially here and in Oz.

You find swimmers that are almost world class, been through college and you teach them then how to run and bike.

I bet there is not a proffessional, winning triathlete on the ITU circuit that could not have swum DIV I here.

On the other hand I bet there are plenty of kids taking part in all three sports, prehaps at Varsity level in HS that due to trying to train to swim and run are compromising their swimming to such an extent that they will not be successful beyond the youth level in triathlon.

Again though, it all depends on how you measure success, theres a kid here in Boulder who's 13, will run 36 or faster for the 10k this year and is swimming in HS.

All he needs is a bike but personally I think he should steer clear of it, and drop the running if his swimming improves.

If he can run like this at 13 and is a talented swimmer there are no limits to what he can do but trying to be good a both is compromising both.

Having a strong swimming background is really important, but you gotta have the run too. Cycling is usually the easiest of the 3 to develop, but in draft legal races the swim isn't all that important unless you're gonna be a Craig Walton and break away there.

You need a strong enough swim to be able to stick with the lead pack, but you gotta have the run to finish it off.

You are right about Bosnich....suffered from white line fever...when he walked over the line onto the field he didn't whether to step over it or snort it...

What Kewell and Viduka at Leeds? Probably the best part of a dozen Aussies in the Premier League...

Australia also did a great job of exporting alot of very good triathletes over the last couple of years, especially in the lead up to the 2000 Olympics....Leanda Cave, reigning world Champ from Great Britain is an Aussie, so to Andrew Johns (although born a POM, he grew up in Australia), Snuffie Reid and a few others headed to NZ...Rina Hill 'defected' to NZ and is now defecting back to Australia....

With Olympic spaces so hot and government funding only for the top of the tree, the 'leftovers' went and searched for grandparents from other nations...

Australia is a Triathlete manufacturing country; Gregg Bennett, Craig Walton, Chris MacCormack, Peter Robertson (to name a few).

Anyone have info on those people (like their history/how they got into Tri's)?

we have met the problemand the problems is. . . .US !!

i believe the problem, such as it is, is us. that is right, the participants. if you look at any youth sport in the USA ( we are never going to have a club system like the UK, or an AIS>>>>) the main thing you will see driving it is V_O_L_U_N_T_E_E_R adults. baseball, basketball, hockey, football, etc etc all have scads of dad's and coaches out there all weekend and home nights all week on the computer making the youth program work. tri does not. it is similar to cycling, where the focus on a paticipatory level is ever shifting to old guys racing, and not helping. old guys racing, as opposed to doing the legwork, gruntwork, and fieldwork with youth will insure things will stay as they are, pretty much. i am not saying this is good or bad, but just is.

my kids enjoy both bike racing AND tri. a they are hooked into a youth program ( run by a very giving adult. . . . .) and for tri we do relays of youth in the adult race, or this year my girl will just race as an adult. the tri's around here are low-key and that will be fine, we are not trying to get to the olympics, we are having some fun on a summer weekend. .. but, if "we" as in " the tri community" want to find the nxt lebron james of tri we need to train/race less and help out more. generally speaking old guys in tri/cycling are more interested in their own program. there is no " they" as in "they should do this or that" we are it.

triathlons are not cool to the younger set. i know i know i know 'your' kid digs the tri. i'm talking nation wide here. competive swimming, cycling and running are the nothing sports here in the us. bring up any of these sports to your average 12 year old and they blank out. very little sex appeal in this sport. too much about suffering not enough bling bling.

the simple fact we are (y'all. i'm in forced retirment.) in sport that combines all three of the lamest sports makes the sport pretty freakin' lame to the hormone crazed set. triathletes just ain't sexy.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Triahlon is as cool as soccer.

Yes, there is a professional soccer league in the US but the masses don;t watch it. I suspect that kids who play or played soccer watch it. That's great but it kind of gets at my opint that sport popularity usually starts with kids and then as they get older they tend support sports they played.

And ttn is right the reason soccer is big in the suburbs is that there are moms and dads out there coaching it and putting on games. It's sort of an if you build it they will come sort fo thing.

There are few opportunities for kids to race, the usat national office is pushing for it but there still aren't many. There very few youth triathlon clubs.

What to do about it? Well there are probably at least a couple of kids tris in driving distance. Granted very few of us have the means to ptu on a tri. But many of us could start a kids tri club if we wanted to. I'm among that lot also.

If you want kids to be in triathlons we are the ones to do it. Have two afternoon camps where you take kids and work on transitions, have races in tying shoes. Teach them how to drink out of water bottels; all sorts of little skills that triathletes need. Go to the neighborhood association meeting and let the parents know. The kids will show up.

Unfortunately in the US everything we do is colored by liability concerns. Especially when dealing with minors. Honestly i think that is a big reason why you or I or other folks in our local tri clubs aren't already doing things for kids.

Trying to come back to your original point, boy did we go off track. While younger kids (like you said ten and under) need the shorter distances, I think, ultimatly, the shorter format is killing off triathlon. As a youngster (a year or two ago) I had the opportunity to a "kids triathlon" I believe the distances were 200yrd swim, 4-5 mile bike, and a one mile run. Having already been doing the longer events I got very frustrated, about the time I would get up to speed it would be time to bike, when I was up to my twenty mph rate it was time to get off, and by the time I had my stride back I was at the finish. Now I know what you are saying (something along the lines of being slow:) Tying this back in, the distance didn't take any work The only real training any of the kids did was in swimming, and worst of all I have never seen or heard of any of these kids that have gotten into the sport because of this distance. They did have any work or sacrafice to make it worth while. On the other hand I have met a lot of "kids" who got into the sport doing an "adult" sprint or olympic distance tri.
To rant just a little more, I think the idea behind a kids only tri is okay, but the current model is pretty much defiling the sport of triathlon. I have a little brother (okay, nopt that little) Who has done a couple of "kids" tri's. He didn't work for them, his training was almost non-existent, and he didn't have to do anything out of the ordinary to do compete. Now, today, he doesn't really think there is anything that special about tri's (in my opinion) because he didn't have to do anything to "earn" it. These "kids" (boy I like to use quotes) (and ()'s) triathlons are just continuing in the pattern of American Laziness.
Ranting from the rodent of the Midwest.

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I don't work here, I just live here

Actually I think the Oly Qualifying is related to this.

Thanks for Andrew Johns though :)

I suspect that the system here would have been better served by going to A and B standards rather than based off of ITU points.

There are a ton of fast AG'ers out there that train like pro's, who as in the marathon, could certainly make the trials interesting but they dont get a shot.

As to the swimmer being able to run issue. You're either a swimmers thats able to run or you're not.

The kid I know certainly is and he does not need to run. If he can run 36-ish this year at 13, he can get back to it if he quits.

On the other hand if he cant hang with the pack in the pool it wont make any difference because short of a 27.30 10k he's be toast if he missed the swim pack or the first bike pack.

Its fairly ez with good coaching to teach someone to run fast, more so if you know they have the background. On the other hand it's virtually impossible to teach someone to swim fast as an adult.

Last year I watched Mrs T's as I raced the week before. Walton made it look like he was swimming against a bunch of school kids, he had over 30 seconds on the pack when he got out of the water if I recall, it was ridiculous to watch, he just pulled further and further away.

At the moment he has the advantage but if someone is to threaten him, they are going to have to be a swimmer. That would probably would indicate that in the future because there are going to be more athletes similar to Walton the swimming is going to become more critical.

actually i believe triathlon is plenty cool to kids. my wife has organized several different relay teams of girls, and we have brought the kid's friends to other races. as an aside we have also introduced more than a few kids to mt bike racing. to my eyes far and away the main limiter to kid's enjoyment of these sports is their parents involvement or even a little support. the kids love these events, in my experience. the swimmers love to be outside and apart of somthing other than the pool, and it helps most kids can actually beat a shitload of fit adults in a typical intl/sprint distance swim. the bike leg has flash and color and cool sunglasses to wear. like dogs, nearly all kids like to run if you give them the chance. tri is colorful and full of hoopla and good cheer. the kids that have gone with us invariably want to do more - they have their school make announcements about it and the local paper put them in the next edition. they beg us to go back. sadly, most lame-a$$ parents do not share their kid's enthusiasm and quickly drag their feet, deny entry fees, won't fix a flat tire on a mountain bike, etc etc. we are lucky if we get them to pat us back for the meals we feed their child or their share of the room. i am a skateboarder and skateboaredrs have a saying - " most people suck". when you talk about kids going to the races, and wanting to adopt something as good for them as tri only to have their lazy slacker parents not be willing to change a flat tire and drive 90 miniutes to cheer for their own offspring in an event they themselves could not even do i have to say i am often proud to be a skateboarder and agree with that old saying. as i noted previously, kids around here can race in no end of tri's - they all love it if we take them - their sorry a$$ lazy cheap parents would rather sit home and go out to dinner with the money they could have spent on an entry fee. i have been there and still am - that is what i see. did i mention many parents are lame ???

oh yeah - the cost issue. we hear this alot. it is a crock, by and large IMHO. the same parents who cry to us about a 20 dollar entry fee share in a relay are driving 4x4 $40,000 trucks and land rovers, going out to dinner every other night. you can bu a KILLER kid's road bike for less than the price of power sunroof on a freaking toyota camry. forego the camry entirely for a used corolla and you can outfit two kids at least with equipment and entry fees and hotel rooms from now until they are 18 y/0 and gone. maybe carry in lunch a time or three ?? etc. sorry crew, it is a sore subject with me. we have driven back from events with other people's kids literally bursting with well deserved pride - only to have their parents spew some total crap about how it costs too much, or is an inconvienence or some such. we can see the kid's enthusiasm and drive wilt in front of our eyes. lame. worst of all to me is the "kids are lazy" line so often trotted out. they are not - by and large - they do and become what they see at home and what many see is petty materialistic selfishness, excuses, and lethargy.