I would say his social media image is pretty damn close to how he is one on one. I do think sometimes he says X and people interpret that as Y. But when you hear him explain it, it's X. He is criticized for going IM to 70.3 to IM, but when he explains it and add the context that IM series didn't exist, PTO was starting, Kona was every year...the list goes on.....I don't see how you can hold a person to what he said 18 months ago. Difference with Lionel is he is open and public about it. Most other pros are not as much.

I think he will hold the course. I would bet money on it. There are drivers and influencers that have probably never been there before. But I think it's going to be an interesting ride.

Idk, the hardcore viewers watching triathlon vids in the dead of winter are surely the minority in comparison to the masses doing an "Ironman in 12 weeks" program. This is surely where the most views come from, just on a population basis. 1-2 videos a week from May-Sep, def, but in the winter I doubt he's gaining many subs by posting a new video.

i would think kienle has way over 40 days testing i guess he has 10 plus days just aero suit and helmet developemt testing. he was very much involved in developing products and with Mercedes had generous access to the wind tunnel. he did loads of track testing and also with sensors on the road one of them a 100k tt.
and i guess consistency is also the key in aero testing and you cant do everything in one year especially changes to bike position is a continuous process.


i guess it would be fair to say had lionel tested like kienle he would also be a multiple world champ as his raw power was higher than kienles and he would have held off patrick had he burned less energy on the bike that day by being more aero.

ya, I hear you.

First of all I am not convinced Lionel outpowers Kienle but that is a whole other discussion. Look back at that race in Vegas (2012 I think) and he just ripped through the field on raw power. I did see aero data a few years later and he was good, but not crazy, even for those years standards.

Maybe I need to rephrase. Maybe there are triathletes doing a lot of testing. My bias is coming from seeing team at the World Tour level not doing nearly as much testing. Even the top teams. I recently tested a guy that did two years on Jumbo and two on UAE and while is was a TT contender he explained how much testing he actually did. And I'd quantify it as minimal. I think we would be REALLY surprised and I suspect we'd be surprised with how "little" the triathletes do.

I do believe a lot of athletes are doing some testing. Yes a guy like Kanute visits A2 every year. But I suspect he isn't doing 12+ days a year. Maybe the Norwegians. Definitely not a lot of the top women.

If I had to bet, I'd say 2-3 days per season.

Might I ask:
a. @pk how many years was that 40 days testing (Keinle)?
b. @marcag how many days testing a season do you think is sensible reasonable good practice? Three sessions of two days each?
Have you got a particular insight into the amount the top WPro athletes test (not Americans) to assert your "definitely" judgement? Ryf Philipp Haug, Matthews, Langridge, Norden, LCB, Simmonds.

I would expect maybe 3 sessions per year and a way to monitor progress in training rides and races

On the top women I know two, top ten Kona. Two days each, maybe...and that is pushing it... I meant "definitely not a lot of time per woman" rather than "definitely not a lot of women testing"

And we could get into the quality of some of the testing being done.

I am curious why you excluded Americans. They were 50% of the top 10 at Kona

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In many ways,the only thing that is keeping Lionel relevant in the tri world is his social media so he should be posting more to keep eyes on "Team Lionel". Here on ST people still get all horny for all things Lionel but in the real world people have short memories. He had a great story once and people ate it up and now he should be pimping his new "comeback" story as much as possible.

Agree 3 quality sessions annually seems good practice.
There are 3 USA women out of 20 contracted T100 athletes. I surmised that you extrapolated your US female athlete testing insight to the testing practice of the 20 "top women". I have no evidence either way.

Interesting. Would you say that world tour TTers cda is generally better than triathletes, both absolutely (i would guess so) but also relatively regarding the demands for the position (run afterwards and up to 4 hours on the bike)? Perhaps a better way to phrase the question is do you believe that the top 20 triathletes have larger potential gains than the top 20 TTers in the world tour?

If i was to shoot from the hip I would guess that world tour tters have better absolute cda (alltough they also ride far less on their tt bike than a triathlete does) and that their potential gains are fewer than for the top 20 triathletes.

And also with regards to Lionel, there is sadly no prize for the ones that do the most amount of work, hurts the most or does the most testing. Its the actual results that count, so if you can be really aero without that many days testing that would be a huge plus. In that regard I guess the UCI is somewhat of a help for cyclists cutting out some areas of improvements that you dont need to test :-)

Are we just making stuff up now?

I have derailed a Lionel thread :-). What I heard were opinions that this was a new shiny toy and he'd eventually tire of it. What I was trying to get across was that he seemed extremely committed to it and I think he will continue. Also, his very limited but influential entourage believes in it. Time will tell but he will see diminishing returns and will taper off. But he has seen tunnel validated results and I suspect he will be happy with his progress. As happy as Lionel gets :-) The dude is hard on himself at times.

In talking with people I have formed an opinion that people do not test enough and those that do, do not always test well. I believe this even stronger on the women's side. I think you see signs of this when you watch the women in Kona. LCB was quite aero, but a some of the positions after that had obvious work. I don't know if men test more or get more support from their sponsors but I see more low hanging fruit with the women.

Agree, no prize for lots of testing. You get a prize for results, which requires you to put in the right effort and pick the right solutions. Do not ask "did you aero test ?" , ask ""what is your aero optimzation process ?". There are also bad decisions made as a result of aero testing. This is why things need to be reviewed on a ongoing basis. With time you find things that explain previous things. He was frustrated when a test showed a previous test was a little misleading. I was ecstatic because we now knew with 100% certainty, (It had to do with yaw conditions).

As for tri vs WT, it's hard to say. I would say triathletes can probably get away with more. Speeds are less and 10sec can be made up elsewhere over a longer time. But there are some triathletes that have done excellent work over the years. Take Jan's CDA and compare it to a 1m95 WT dude. I suspect Magnus is with any WT guy. But there are not too many triathlete that are Remcos. Maybe the bigger guys are as good but there aren't as many tiny guys ? Just guessing.

Top 20 triathletes vs WT gains: yes I think the triathletes have more to gain. Remco, Jonas, Roglic....good luck finding big gains. Sam Long, Jason.... not to criticize, but as an arm chair aero tester, yes there are gains to be had there.

Sorry to have derailed things, I'll shut up now :-)

Just to be clear, I worry that he's taking too much fatigue when he spends the entire day on the bike testing, and then goes on to swim a 45x100 or whatever. You know him and work with him, I don't, but anybody - especially someone known for easily changing his mind about things - could say "f**k it", given the physical and mental load.

As I get more comfortable in my armchair...

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

One for the geeks...

Do we know his race schedule already?

Agree.

I recently saw a PTO100 analysis video - it listed the notable athletes that did not sign up, but did not mention Lionel as one of them. A few years ago, he would definitely been included as a notable absence. His influence is indeed waning.

Pretty much guarantee he'll be doing IM TX if he's focusing on the Ironman Pro Series.

He looks even skinnier than usual. I think he needs to eat more. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Interestingly here, in the Wyn video he said he was taking a prototype into the tunnel, but in the pic he's still in the Surpass suit - leading me to believe this isn't the final position haha.

Sneaky...

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

I would not read too much into one picture. It was one of many tests.
He started with his last race setup and then tried a bunch of things.
That was one pic along the way.

Haha no I'm not reading much into it, more thought it was cheeky in that it was something we've seen before but who knows about suits and position and...did they check helmets? The POC is all we've seen lately...

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

If you look at the races, my guess would be:
- Oceanside 70.3
- Texas
- Mont Tremblant 70.3
- Lake Placid
- Kona
-70.3 worlds

If you look at the races, my guess would be:
- Oceanside 70.3
- Texas
- Mont Tremblant 70.3
- Lake Placid
- Kona
-70.3 worlds //

But that is only the minimum # of races one needs to score fully in the series. I would bet that there is another full and half in there somewhere, to make up for a not so great race here and there. At least if I were going for a podium in the series, I would have banked good races before the two finals. It is a grueling schedule for those athletes to have to contend with, they will truly be the ironmen(and women) of the sport to navigate what it will take to win that thing....

Might be a stupid question but does the point system for the Ironman series end at the two world championships or does it go by calendar year? He does Indian Wells a good bit and could try to Florida or Arizona (if they have a pro race) if he needed some final points.

There is only limited nr of races that are part of the series, see here: https://www.ironman.com/...athletes-race-series

Indian Wells and Florida not part of this