I didn't "falsely" accuse. There seems to be a fine line between drafting and blocking. On every hill, and there were a lot of them, one brother pulled the other, but then sat up, so it was a draft leading to a block.

You guys are damn twisted. A few athletes do something wrong in a race, but you attack the other athletes that were impacted? Amazing.

WTC events are POORLY officiated.

When I sat out on the Timberman last year I saw packs, pelotons and people riding side by side for close to a mile having a conversation.

There was an official with the lead bike and lead car (Rasmus) and then there was an official with the Chrissie... after that... crickets.

Actually thinking back... I did see one other floater moto official, but looked more like they were on a sightseeing tour... They were in a no-man's land gap, i.e. no riders 5 minutes before or after and at the leisurely pace they were riding, don't think they would catch the riders before the turn around.

My vantage point was just over 18 miles into the ride, so I got to see a large portion of the bike race, pretty much covered almost half the course.

Race officials at WTC events remind me of the police doing the speed traps at 5PM on the median strip... They pretty much are sleeping.

When I was shooting Providence 70.3, was pretty much the same deal. Official with lead pro men, official with lead pro women... then free do do what you want... never saw another official over much of the bike course

At 21mph you're traveling 9.38 meters per second so for a legal 10 meter gap there would only need to be just the tiniest bit more than 1 second between them.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Even the blocking, were the two riders just slowing down to wait for the third (which is perfectly legal), or were they spread out across the road such that you couldn't legally pass to the left?

I know one got a blocking call, normally when refs see something like that they check back to make sure it doesn't happen continuously.

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Styrrell

I understand it's hard to chase everyone down all the time and the officials tried to keep order out there. The scary part was the second loop with all the pot holes and waterbottles and debris and then you get a group of 30+ riders 4 people wide coming in the opposite direction as you crossing over the yellow line.

I think Jimmy's crew did the best they could have done at NYC.

Now Timberman is different as the logistics are different. The sections coming back into town get jammed up. Timberman is a long standing event. Officials should be placed strategically along the course based on previous years data collection of where cheating occurs. Maybe Jimmy has that in place now.

I know this is off topic but are the brothers in the painting business? I was in Belgium recently and heard about some guys who were relatively new to the sport, had amazing talent, and ran a family painting company in a way that gave them time for Ironman training. I am all the more impressed if these guys are entrepreneurs who can combine sport and business.

Sections coming into town get jammed, but really the drafting occurs out on 106 where people can open up. First 12 miles is slow with the climbs and though you have the descents, it will all bunch at Marsh Hill anyway.

Having done moto duty, it would be real easy to make your way up through the field on 106 and then loop back, or there are also a real quick back section where you can cut over and come in at the top of Marsh and loop through again. 2 officials should be able to ride through 106 (30 miles of the 56) twice and pass most riders at least twice.

When you get down to it, there really are not enough officials on the course. Most I have been to might have 5 at best, and like I said some of the places I saw them (like parked at the bottom of the Country Club Rd Descent) really did not make much sense.

After re-reading the USAT rules on position fouls, it seems that the early stages of the race were blocking fouls. The later problems on the hills were more of a drafting to a right-of-way and passing problem. In order for me to comply with being overtaken, I would have to sit up when they sat up, wait until there was enough distance and time, but then they were slowing down significantly to wait for the other brother, so I would have to either slow down to their same rate of speed but stay far enough behind to stay out of the drafting zone or stand up and try to pass both brothers at the same time (because they were too close together to get in between) and then to try to put in enough distance so I didn't impede upon them and their forward progress.

The problem was it happened on every hill, and there were a lot of them. I ride based on watts. On every hill I would maintain about 220 until I was passed, then my watts would drop to 150 or less when the brothers sat up and forced me to sit up, then when I could pass legally, it would take about a 400+ watt effort to get passed them both and put in the distance. Doing this on every hill was tiring. I guess I need to train for that from now on.

BTW - "While on the cycling course, participants shall not work together to improve performance, efficiency, or position by teamwork or other joint conduct." That is from USAT rules. That was violated. The brothers acknowledged as much, so I don't think there is an arguement about that.

However, they were not penalized for it by the refs (other than the warning), so therefore I don't think it's fair for this website to call them out as cheaters.

I really want this thread to be over as it is getting out of control, but I do feel obligated to somehow defend myself even though I have done nothing wrong here. I didn't start the thread, I didn't go after the brothers in anyway, I didn't sling mud. There was a problem that MANY people witnessed, I responded, they responded, no one is hurt. Let it drop. The horse is dead.

And Jimmy, since I am done with the Ironman distance, I would be willing to help ref on the sourse if there is an IMNYC next year. Or even IMLP next year. I would love to see the race from that perspective. If you are willing to take me up on the offer, please email me and I will do whatever credentials are needed between now and next year.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Much though we may think that the bike leg of an Ironman is a time trial, there are significant benefits to riding a legal pace-line and at the pointy end athletes may need to race tactically rather than just ride from A to B. Whether that means sitting in the pace-line or kicking for a few minutes to break away is going to depend on the course and the athletes in quesiton. Certainly makes it more interesting.


Being from Europe, I can never remember whether US WTC races apply USAT rules? Do they have their own rules that sit above the USAT rules?

Actually Zach I think this thread has been very interesting. The USAT rule you quote is the crux of my issue with what was done here. And Jimmy, to be clear if you read my comments I am of the opinion that the brothers did not intend to cheat, while they were out on course they did not feel that they were in violation of the rules, but I would suggest based on what was observed and that USAT rule, they did. Now they are aware of the limitations of these kind of team tactics and will likely modify their behavior accordingly. That's a good thing.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

The Horse is dead:

but I think we can all agree that the Belgian brothers worked to improve their overall performance according to the USAT rules stated above.

Part of your problem is a mis understanding of the rules. when they slow up you don't have to pass both, just the one in front of you. Onec your front wheel is mm infornt of his, its his obligation to drop back. Same with the guy in front, you are under no obligation to pull far enough ahead of him so you don't impede him.

As far as the teamwork thing. I honestly don't know what that means, if they weren't drafting ilegally or blocking illegally, it seems like a vague rule.

ther only other comment I have is expecting to ride to a certain watt goal in a WTC race is going to be hopelessly frustrating. In this particular case, you were never going to get around them and put any time on them, they were just to strong. So instead of speeding up on the hills, and burning power, when you knew that they would come around you later, just become the 4th brother, stay behind legally, relax, finish the bike at the same time you did anyways, and run your ass off. Their being at the race could have been a big stategic benefit to you, instead you allowedit to be a mental and physical determent.

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Styrrell

"BTW - "While on the cycling course, participants shall not work together to improve performance, efficiency, or position by teamwork or other joint conduct." That is from USAT rules. That was violated. The brothers acknowledged as much, so I don't think there is an arguement about that. "



This is issue I am dissappointed in based on the reports. They were admittedly working as a team to get a Kona slot. The teamwork seems to affected others racing and competing for a slot. One rider was basically working as a domestique to benefit the other brothers.

What happens if more tri clubs/team start using this tactic with their stronger riders towing others (legally) in their club for Kona Q attempts. (Or maybe this is alreadying occuring to some degree)

I do not see it the same as the pros legally working together on the bike to eventually try to out run each other at the end. The pros are still looking out for themselves for the highest placing possible and as far as I know not slowing down to let their buddy catch up.

Well said.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Thanks Zach for providing insight into the dynamic that played out and for various others for providing amplification on the rules associated with team work.

Those of us who have kids, probably have shared this advice with our kids, "if you are about to get into a situation where your gut feels you may have to explain your way out of later, then the smart thing is to just avoid the situation".

Showing up at a race, with the same team kit, with identical splits with many eyewitnesses reporting riding in near vicinity of each other (can be totally legal), is going to immediately arouse scrutiny. That's just the way it is. .....better to never go there. If the guys are in contention for a Kona slot, and they are going to have identical splits, and be in team gear and in formation, then they can likely expect the rest of the world will take a second look.

The brothers could easily race spaced apart from one another with many riders in between them and then most of this discussion just evaporates. Riding in a legal paceline in team kit with almost identical splits will immediately call for scrutiny.

Congrats to them on the Kona slot. When they get there, they will have many more athletes in the pointy end of the field, and they can become brothers with other athlete and use the rest of the field to help them in their race and then they are squeeky clean.

I personally find this thread very interesting. Take out a few inappropriate posts and you are left with a very interesting situational scenario that I hope we can continue to discuss and learn from. Zach and the brothers are at peace so let's drop that part and move on.

Zach, what would you do differently if you could go back in time? It sounds like you might have been better off just hanging on the back of their paceline (legally), even though it forced you to put out power less evenly than you wanted?

I experienced something similar in the NYC Olympic, though not as extreme. I was trying to (legally) paceline with some other riders but they would fly up the hills, then settle in behind me (legally) in the flats and not pass. I didn't want to drag them all the way to the finish, yet I wasn't sure I wanted to burn the energy to drop them. I was able to drop them eventually so it only affected about 1/4 of my race, but it was the same idea.

It's also interesting to me that I can mess with someone else's race without breaking any rules, simply by having a different power distribution on the hills vs flats than they do. I certainly don't want to intentionally screw with someone, but I'm not going to give up my optimal racing style just so they can have theirs.

Just read over my OP as well as the 5 pages that followed, and here is my conclusion: When someone boasts of his honesty, keep your hand on your wallet, your eye on your wife, and your mule in the barn. For living proof of this quote see picture below:

"Having done moto duty"

Then you would understand and it make perfect sense to you that perhaps the "parked at the bottom of the Country Club Rd Decent" was an attempt to take a pi$$ break, grab a drink or maybe give a chance for 2 motorcycles with marshals that maybe were bunched up a chance to spread back out on the course.

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So who exactly are you calling a liar now? The Belgians, prattzc, Dev, Jimmy R (all have alluded to their ethics in this thread)? And apparently you now have evidence that Lance is in fact guilty? I used to think that you were just another worthless fuck who talks shit about others behind the anonymity of the internet - now you've confirmed it. It's time for you to move on and find another victim to attack -

Dude not cool with out actual proof. Like others said maybenthey did it legally.

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Official Polar Ambassador
http://www.google.com/...P7RiWyEVwpunlsc2JtQQ

Jeez - I post a harmless picture of Pinnochio and the next thing I know my integrity is being questioned.

This is issue I am dissappointed in based on the reports. They were admittedly working as a team to get a Kona slot. The teamwork seems to affected others racing and competing for a slot. One rider was basically working as a domestique to benefit the other brothers.


That's what I don't get.

I don't understand why they just can't do their own race.

Call me crazy, but I imagine that was a response to your statement