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Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works!
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Let me just preface this post. I am not a client of Mitch Gold, nor does he provide me with training programs.

I have a background of many years of triathlon (21 to be precise). Lots of volume in these legs in all sports (read big base).

I formulate pretty well my own stuff based on what fits in with my life, placing key workouts leadiing up to major event, while cramming in all the other stuff when/if it works out with the rest of my life.

I thought I had tried every approach to Ironman training in the book. Low volume, High volume, intensity on the bike, run intervals, the 20K per week swim program, 600K bike weeks, run focused weeks etc etc etc.

Earlier this year, I sought advice from a number of people on how to nail my Ironman run split. After lots of advice from a variety of pundits, I got back everything I had previously tried, like 3 hour long runs, big run volume, threshold run intervals, short bricks of long rides, run focus weeks etc etc etc.

Mitch Gold (http://www.counterpartcoaching.com/) piped in saying that if I wanted to run like a marathoner off the bike, I needed to train like a marathoner WHILE doing Ironman bike and swim training. The concept of the run focus week, while allowing breakthroughs in the off season, did not provide enough Ironman specific simulation during the build (ie unloading swim and bike volume)

He suggested that I keep up big volume on the swim and bike, and while doing that, do one longer run per week (2 hours was sufficient), but also do lots of shorter runs ranging from 50 min to 80 min to keep up my run frequency. I also needed to run at 7.5 to 8 min per mile which was my desired Ironman run pace for all my runs...no sandbagging, but no need to hammer either. By running 6-8 times per week, I could keep my run volume up, while running at a reasonable pace, all the while doing the swim and bike training.

Quoting Mitch:

"...I took the liberty of assuming that the next logical question would be: If not intervals, than what or how do you get faster? I responded with frequency, volume, duration and consistency, which in turn builds strength, durability and economy in running.

To answer one of your questions: I prefer to keep the weeks balanced rather than intentional reduce the cycling and swimming just so you can run more. This might mean re-thinking what a balanced week looks like; I've always emphasized the run.

What is "needed to pull off that "crème de la crème" sub 3:30 Ironman run split". I think it takes more than 3-4x per week and 4 hrs of running, especially when one of those runs is your weekly long run of 2 hrs (and a few other runs of 30 - 40 min). It takes more than 12 weeks to build a solid running program. I picked those numbers because it seems like that's what most people are doing to prepare for IM; Most people don't run to their potential at IM.

I think for most people to run to their potential at IM they need to change the way they look at their running program. Most will need to run 5x at a minimum; many of the bigger weeks should include 6 or 7 runs. The duration of the runs should build to between :50 - 1:20 so the weekly volume might be as high as 7 or 8 hrs. Long runs are not required every week. Too many people get a false sense of security from their long run and use it to beef up their weekly volume so they don't have to run so often. But when your frequency is lacking you'll feel it during an IM.

I believe strongly in this protocol. I've had the pleasure of seeing my IM marathon time improve every single time (save one) over the last 7 years. Almost every athlete I work with pr'd last year including a 9:53 first time IM with a 3:23 run and Lori Travis running the 3rd fastest in ag (3:38) run split in Kona."

At an intuitive level this made a lot of sense. I'd be doing lots of runs, exactly in the state (or close to the state) that I would experience in Ironman...with lots of swimming in my upper body and biking in my legs.

Over the course of May and June, I ended up with a bunch of weeks in the 85K-100K range.

Fast forward to Ironman Lake Placid on Jul 23rd. I did everything to put myself in a position to run sub 3:30 out of T2 pacing the swim and bike very conservatively...except I self sabotaged like many others, mismanaging my nutrition. Despite being on a bloated stomach and zero energy, I was still going along OK. By mile 10, I felt like my second loop was heading towards a 2:30+ split. Then my stomach settled, and as soon as I got blood sugar into my body, I had the legs to RUN properly again. In 12 previous Ironmans, when things fell apart, I never had the legs to bounce back.

Anyway, I ended up running the last 10 miles at 8 - 7:30 pace just like all those short training runs. While my final run time was 3:42, I closed the race in a solid way.

No long runs over 2 hours, no intervals, but lots of short stuff on top of bike and swim training. It worked. I did an Ironman PB of 10:23 at age of 40, and I qualified for Hawaii

I swear by this approach. Best part is that you never feel fried in training, and you don't really have to find big blocks of time to get your run training in. 30 min here, 40 min there, 50 min elsewhere, 20 min off the bike etc etc etc and you suddenly have a big volume run week. I took the liberty of modifying Mitch's 50-80 range to 20-80 :-).

It worked (at least for me).

Thanks Mitch...see you in Kona, I'm going to use the same framework in September.

Dev
Last edited by: devashish paul: Aug 2, 06 19:12
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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WOW!

Congrats on your Kona spot. It is inspiring and interesting to hear what works when people have a big breakthrough. Certainly a different approach than many programs... Out of curiousity - besides getting tired at the endo if an IM race in the past - have you considered the run to be a weaker discipline compared to the bike + swim or was it a strong discipline that is now stronger?

Good luck with your IMHawaii training!

____________________________________________________
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Raising Funds for Myeloma Research in Honor of my Mom
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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1) Told ya you'd get a slot. Congrats.

2) I like what Mitch has to say on most stuff. Especially his "taper interrupted" idea.

3) Someone handed me a swim cap on a practice swim day at Kona last year, so I kept it and swam with it for months. It said Counterpart Coaching. I didn't realize that was his business until someone pointed it out to me!

**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [Tri Nic] [ In reply to ]
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The run was a strong discipline in shorter races that was weak in Ironman. Part of it was due to bike and swim pacing, but the other part was not enough Ironman specific pace on an ongoing basis on legs that had been biked with.

Aztec, yes indeed, Mitch usually has good points when he posts on this forum and elsewhere. Between his advice on ironman running and Dr. Tommy and Doug Stern in swimming, I owe lots of guys some beers.

Dev
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Well done Dev! Your hardwork has paid off. Congratulations!

Thanks very much for the kind words; truly appreciate your comments.

Look forward to meeting you in Kona!

Mitch


Counterpart Coaching.com

Counterpart Coaching Training Camps
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Congrats on your Kona slot Dev! I used Mitch last year getting ready for IM Wisconsin and had a great race for where I was at fitness wise. 21/376 35-39.... Although I didn't use Mitch this year, I adopted all of the training principles you described and in my qualifying race for IM Canada this year, I had a 34 sec per mile improvement at the same bike effort.. I'm very excited to see what happens at Canada! Best of luck in Kona, hope to be there as well! Jeff
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [Mitch Gold] [ In reply to ]
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Mitch / Dev -

Q for either of you...

Is the increased run frequency throughout your entire IM training plan? Or, is it limited to a number of weeks/certain phases?


Thanks
Last edited by: jar1635: Aug 3, 06 4:53
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Good stuff...but how did this impact your bike workouts?

Bricks or AM/PM sessions?

Recovery an issue (not for the run, rather the bike)?

What was the impact on your bike performance, the same? Or possible took a hit here in order to gain on the run?
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [jar1635] [ In reply to ]
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I can't answer if you are supposed to do it for the entire time. I only did it for 6 weeks after I got Mitch's advice.

With respect to the question about all the running affecting bike workouts, the answer is yes, my legs were a bit more cooked for biking, but there is no injury impact of riding on slightly cooked legs.

In my B races, my bike splits were slower, I think mainly cause my typical 2 day taper did not give sufficient time to rebound from all that running volume, but the runs were all faster this year...but by the time I got to Ironman LP, I PB'd on the bike and run with a 2 week taper. 2 weeks out from LP, I unloaded with barely 45K of running and race week, I only did one 20 min run, so my lelgs were totally rested.



Dev
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Great job. I don't have anywhere near the experiance that you have but I have been sticking to run frequency protocol. Longest run here is 2 hrs, I do that just twice. Otherwise I run 1.20 once a week and the other 6 runs are 8.2 miles(one loop for me). I do build in some intervals but nothing much faster than my IM pace(7,15 hopefully). First IM my run split was 3.55, second IM run split was 3.23.

Good luck in Kona.



Paul



Looking like a color blind super hero!
Damn triathlon.
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [Rockhopper1] [ In reply to ]
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Rockhopper, I truly feel that Mitch's approach works well otherwise I would not be pushing it. Lots of 5-10 mile runs seems to be less taxing than a few 10-18 mile runs on a week in week out basis, and it actually makes finding time for run training easy (no big blocks of time required), only need to find big blocks of time for running...and in the end fitting in the training around life is the biggest challenge.

Usually, I speak from an "n=1" sample set on what works on myself, but in this case, it worked on myself and was proven on many of Mitch's paying customers. While my run was not the 3:30 I was aiming for, I was able to pull out a steady top 5% 3:42 run performance on a day that was going from bad to very bad.
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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They key to running frequency is to keep the legs fatigued without beating them up with the long runs. My legs are always a little tired but I avoid the muscular and joint pain associated with long runs. The other thing that helps me in racing is to key in on the running pace that I have set for myself, keeps the bike in check. For example for IMMOO I plan to qualify for Boston. If that happens and the bike does not fail machanically I should also qualify for Kona. But it is all one step at a time.

I run about 45 miles a week all mostly shorter runs concentrating on cadence, comfort, posture, breathing, technique not speed. All in all we run slow so there is not need for much speed work and the endurance is built on 6 hour bike rides.

Paul



Looking like a color blind super hero!
Damn triathlon.
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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"Most will need to run 5x at a minimum; many of the bigger weeks should include 6 or 7 runs."

looks like a good protocol... for the experienced big base athlete looking for a run BT... though i still feel variety in training approaches and focus (over the years) is key.

dev or mitch - did you brick many of these shorter runs? if so, was it out of necessity (time limiter) or by design?
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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John,

I did three half Ironmans in my leadup to LP (St. Croix, Tupper Lake, Peterborough) and the Muskoka Long course (15K run). I also did a 21K run off a 3K swim-180K bike at my Epicman training event. Also did a 1:29 Pace half marathon pace bunny job after a 90K ride in May at the ING Ottawa Half Marathon. Aside from that, I had many weeks where I did my "hard" Wed early monrning 90K ride (legs totally like Jello by the time the ride ends), followed by a 45 min run at lunch. In my lead up to St. Croix I did many 20 min runs off the bike (at least 3 times a week) but after St. Croix, there were only a few more 20-30 min transition runs off the bike, aside from all the big ones listed above.

So yes, I did do lots of running off the bike early in the year (April), but once I started all the racing, I reduced the frequency of bricks big time since I was getting it at racing or "Epic Training" days and I deemed that to be enough.

Also doing brick runs is not convenient. I hate it when I return from a long ride and my son wants to shoot hoops with me, or wants me to take him to the local pool or play lego with him and I tell him to wait for 30 min longer while I run. I just feel totally guilty and would rather bail on another run and shoot hoops :-)

Dev
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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"...would rather bail on another run and shoot hoops"

though with your discipline and focus I imagine you would slip in a few plyo squats and lunges in between shots! ;)
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Really. After your first year of tris. What do bricks or transition runs really do for you? Except for helping with training time constraints.
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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A couple of years back lots of talk on Gordo's board about running 6 or 7 days a week for people with a solid foundation and proven history of injury free running.

Good friend of mine understood the first part but not the second part. He decided on his own to run 7 days per week.

I think he finally got over his calf muscle tear in the spring. Only took 18 months or so.

If you can pull it off, this sounds great.
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [johnthesavage] [ In reply to ]
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When I take my son to the neoghbourhood pool, I get the lifeguards to put out one lane for me (which all the adults end up using). I get in ~500 m of drills, 50 m at a time in between playing shark or have my son do cannonballs off the diving board creating a huge swell as I swim by. I even bring my rubber innner tube to do some arms only Tom Evans approved "band drills". I don't think me knees can handle plyometrics while shooting hoops after a long bike ride!
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Dev,

Let me summarize your infommercial with these two sentences:

"I did more running training than before and I realized that I became faster than before. I got the idea from Mitch Gold, which I therefore consider to be a genious"

Who would have guessed, you trained more and you've gone faster... I'll see you in Kona.
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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You going back to Kona? I thought it was overrated?



Jim
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [jman] [ In reply to ]
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Mitch Rules!

vinu@fuelbelt.com
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo, are you jealous that I have endorsed free advice from Mitch vs zero advice from you? Feel free to contribute, and I am sure many of us will provide you with the infomercials that you deeply crave but you outwardly reject :-). You had the option of providing some useful advice. I got zero from you, but I got some from Mitch. I used it. It worked :-)

See you in Kona. We can finally have the 140 lbs weakling armwrestling smackdown over a glass of Port (although we'll have to make sure our Test vs Epitest ratio remains 4:1....)

:-)

Dev
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Mitch is the coolest! ;)
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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I forgot my new motto:

"Don't argue with a foul. He will get you down to his level and win every time"
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Re: Thanks: Mitch Gold's Ironman Running Program Works! [Aztec] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Aztec.

Would you mind telling me more about the taper interrupted idea from Mitch?

Good to hear about what leads to breaktrough perfomance. Especially from those of you experienced athletes.

Congrat's and have a nice training for the World's at Hawaii Devanish Paul!

Thanks, Marcos.

http://www.marcosapenedoamaral.blogspot.com
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