here's the point you don't seem to get. There are dirty doctors out there, lots of them. They'll doctor test results to give people plausible excuses to take meds. Look at all the anti-aging clinics, look at whats going on in baseball. it's not "the rules" it's the fact that how do you stop it if you let any doctor with a diagnosis get an athlete a valid TUE? So it's either let them all do it, or make it really hard to get. I assume you aren't advocating the "let them all do it" approach?



If youre suggesting some ammendment to the rules that allows people to race while on testosterone, I'd be interested to hear how you'd plan to police that.

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First thing you do is remove them from "competition" by having all those AG'ers on TUEs for testosterone (or other similarly helpful substances) start in a separate wave or if that is not possible have their numbers marked so that officals and racers know that they are ineligable for awards.That will keep the true and harmless participants involed in the sport and take away some of the reason for the cheaters to cheat.Those who truly want to stay in the sport for their health and for fun will stay and those who are blatantly cheating for advantage will no longer have any advantage.Pro's who are on TUE's would be allowed to compete but under very strict doping controls.

I am not saying TUE folks or those on lifelong meds for illnesses should get a free pass but I am saying that we could be less militant about it.

There are rules in place for sure but sometimes rules can be bent or amended for special reason or individuals who simply can't participate for one reason or another.This needs to be recognised and some guidlines for rule "breaches" laid down.I remember having a conversation with the 2IC of NAS after IMCdA about drafting among the slowpoke recreational triathletes at the back of the pack and he was so sad that the draft busters were being totally anal about busting non-competative folks who were clearly struggling just to get through the day while the athletes "working together" up the front were left alone.Some "rules" need to be applied differently in different situations.

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Honestly, this is the first idea I could get onboard with for T or similar drugs you can get a TUE for. They are in their own wave, and there's no podium for that wave. So go rip out that new PR, but if you're on T, all you're getting to show for it is the same medal as everyone else. No one in those waves could qualify for any championship. Further, No USAT ranking for that wave either. That means folks in that wave are truly completing not competing, and if you're on T for a valid reason, you're in that wave.

Of course if you're not on T for a valid reason you're telling USAT youre not on T anymore, you enter the normal wave, and there we hope they get increased drug testing going and catch those assholes.

As for drafting, if they're in that "completion wave" they can draft. Otherwise, no soft touch for drafting. Remember, there are clyde/athena/newbie waves in a lot of races, and those guys & gals are often at the back, so if 2 guys who know each other are drafting at the back (which I've seen on more than 1 occasion) that puts me at a disadvantage. I'll never say (at least as long as I am as slow and fat as I am) that doping affects me personally, but other peoples drafting and my unwillingness to cheat has absolutely affected my position in my age group.

I think that VO2 max has been bandied about way too much as an absolute indicator of physical abilities. I've known a couple of cyclists who were quite successful at the elite level with horrible VO2 max scores. On the other hand I was tested at 80 in my prime and though I did okay I never had the kind of results that you'd expect if that was an absolute indicator. I certainly never any results that would put me ~2.5% from Lance Armstrong when he was an amateur. I don't remember making any Olympic teams or winning the Elite National RR, etc.

Taking a VO2 max test is slightly different than a 6 hour mountain stage in the Tour or a Classic or even something like the Nevada CIty Classic. Yeah, people with high VO2 max scores tend to do better, but it's not 1 to 1.

As for testosterone, I am of the opinion that guys with low T that are supplementing are cheating and should get a two year ban if they get caught. End of story unless you get a TUE from USADA.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
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I agree with you on pretty much your entire post; my point about VO2 max was simply a mention of how lemond reminded lance about clean racing that if youre starting from a truly elite position like with a 95 vo2, it's something physiologically someone with an 82 simply doesnt have that capacity.

As for the your VO2 in comparison to lances, frankly, we don't know that anything he's done in professional cycling was ever clean. Rumor has it from some pretty well places sources is that he's going to admit to doping going back to 1987. That would make him what, 16?

And as for the rule change, I was merely hypothesizing with someone who is unhappy with a current rule. Cheating is all about taking away from someone else. The rule change he suggests merely means new cheaters wouldnt bother with the TUE and risk getting caught, because theyre not doping to cheat, theyre doping to win. People with TUEs could still complete the race and get the value of finishing, which I think is where the real value coems from anyways.

I agree with everything you wrote. As long as there isn't a scarlet letter for those who require legitimate medication I think it's a great idea. I'm an age grouper. I'm under no delusion that the few times I've won an "age group podium" at a local race that it was a fictional creation to give some people an added incentive. If they did away with age group medals all together I wouldn't stop training or racing. I race myself. I have a friendly competition with my brother and people I train with. The only other person I don't compete with is that guy or girl who is within my sight 400 to 800m from the finish line.

As someone who is on T-supplementation for life due to a genetic disorder (mid 20's male) I have to disagree with your stance upon a separate TUE wave. I know that I would love to qualify for a championship race someday (maybe only in my dreams). And why would I and others with legitimate TUEs wish to be excluded from rankings and normal award ceremonies? I'm normally MOP and I think if I could give up delicious beer and pizza I think I could start to get to FOP. I know the people with legitimate TUEs don't wish to be excluded nor do we want to be singled out and marked for being medically "handicapped" if you wish to say. Plus, I don't think everyone would like to be publicly labeled for a medical exemption no matter how minor or major it is. I think the TUE system is okay the way it is except for the ridiculous cost for supplementary tests for proof related to the TUE paperwork.

i don't think anyone is talking about legitimate TUEs. The system being discussed, as I understand it, would be for those who have a legitimate need for TRT but cannot receive a TUE because they don't qualify, can't afford it, etc... Your specific problem is covered under a TUE. Some people, for whatever reason, get a low testosterone count very early. For example, if you need TRT to get to an "average" level of 500-700ng/mL, some here would say you're "average" is just lower than everyone else. Many physicians deal with that and prescribe it. Sure, that guy could probably get a TUE if he went to see every specialist under the sun and spent more on tests and doctors than a Cervelo P5-six with Di2 and Zipps would cost just to get to a sprint tri as an age grouper. Seems ridiculous to many people. Seems perfectly legit to many people. There's no right answer on this issue.

umm......yes it does, check after IM Florida or mayne even search IMflorida on here and you will see many do care about drafting on here. check cheting in general and see that many on here care about it. if you dont play by the rules you are cheating. it is black and white no grey area in there at all. go ahead cheat and then follow what happens on slowtwutch after if you get caught. I wont do it but I can guarentee someone else will. These guys here will eat you alive.

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I agree that the system is fine the way it is. I was merely hypothesizing with someone who isn't ok with it. If you got your TUE approved by USAT, than I have faith it's for a condition that warrants it. The problem some others here seem to have is that USAT is too strenuous in their policing, and it's my opinion they need to be.

All these benetfits you're listing - this is your view of "Nothing" ?

The nothing that was quoted from my post was in reference to the superhuman ability that many here seem to attribute to a T level of 200.

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The point is that you are making the case that even taking a small amount of T reduces fatigue, helps you sleep, strengthens your heart... these are all beneficial to triathlon performance. So it clearly does "something". A drug does not have to turn you into superman to qualify as cheating - if such a drug even exists.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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If you read Tyler Hamilton's book, the first time he doped was with testosterone and he definitely felt it made a significant difference to his performance, even before he started up with the EPO.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Then using that logic, I should not be allowed to use glucoasmine and chrondroitin for my knees or albuterol for my lungs. I don't believe T actually strengthens your heart but instead a LACK of T predisposes your heart to disease, so bumping your T up to the minimum of normal would simply put you back in the same category of everyone else WRT heart disease. Again, using that logic I also should not be allowed to use soy to decrease insomnia and hot flashes and the deep brain fog and inability to recover as opposed to my non-hormone depleted state (dunno what my T was before but it is 0 now).

We already have an example of a drug that is allowed at low concentrations (albuterol inhaled) but not high concentrations (albuterol nebulized). I don't see the problem, considering the health issues associated with seriously low T (make a number just like the pulmonologists have done with asthma), of bringing someone's T up to the bare minimum of normal (which seems to be accepted to be 200 ng/mL). Just like asthma, you can have a clearly delineated line for excess and minimum standards for treatment.

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how do you propose to enforce that those using it that way will not abuse it until just prior to the event where they might get tested? not everyone has a good moral compass and those that do not will be giving themselves........................

They already have that. There is a clearly defined process for getting a TUE for testosterone.

John

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This joke is so incredibly short sighted and disingenuous. Young cyclists are dead because they couldn't avoid the slippery slope this puts athletes on. Even those working with physicians with years of doping experience have died or nearly died. Hamilton's book details his own misadventure with bad or wrong typed blood. And there's no way to know how many more have had trouble because they can't talk about it for fear of reprisal. Cycling needs some truth and reconciliation for no other reason than to get the name of doping doctors out into the light.

Intellectually, I understand this argument. Food is chemicals. Testosterone is a chemical. EPO is a chemical. What's the difference. I can say that the difference is what is "natural" rather than "engineered" and the counter-argument is that many things that are food today and perfectly legal are engineered. Our bikes are engineered. Why can't our bodies be engineered?

All I can really say is that sport is about humans competing with other humans with their natural talents. There is a line to be drawn at what you can do to your body that is detected by the "smell" test. Generally, if you are trying to alter your body's chemistry in ways that cannot be done with regular food, beyond what is allowed by the current TUE process which makes sense to me, then that is cheating. Engineering food to be smaller or in a form easier to carry with you rather than as apples rice or chicken is fine. You are not altering your body chemistry differently than you would with regular food. But when you start supplementing hormones, it is different than food.

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Ed O'Malley
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Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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The idea that sports are about competing based on one's natural talents is not true as either as a description of what the rules actually are nor as a description of what the rules ought to be. The rules give tons of leeway for all sorts of procedures and strategies that are not "natural." That's true from the trivial -- such as shaving -- to the middle of the road -- such as altitude tents -- to major stuff like surgery. The rules ought to focus on things which have one of two features. First, the rules ought to focus on things which are inherently unequally available. For example, if something gave a large advantage but is affordable to only a tiny percentage of the field, there is a good equity argument for not allowing it. Wealth will always be an advantage in sports, but it should not be a decisive advantage. Second, the rules ought to prevent things that are dangerous. We require cyclists to wear helmets because we don't want people to trade a few seconds for a risk to their health. Requiring everyone to wear a helmet avoids the temptation to make the tradeoff. Some drugs fall into that category.

Well, it is a joke. However, the theory behind it holds true. Alcohol is a chemical that kills many more young people than PEDs. I'm speaking from a strictly philosophic point of view here. Again, it's my opinion there's no "right answer" to this debate. I just think that the joke, while obviously generalized and meant for humor, does posess a particular insight that can be gleaned from it without swallowing the whole thing at face value.

So people taking testosterone supplements for a legitimate medical condition (i.e., pituitary adenoma, Kallman syndrome) shouldn't get to compete? What's the point of a TUE, if not to distinguish between those who genuinely need medical exemption, versus those simply trying to gain an edge?

Holy crap, I just did a little google research myself and I feel dirty just by looking at these forums and websites... TONS of people are out there openly discussing how to use T and EPO for cycling and triathlon, as well as a ton of shit I have never heard of.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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You ned to realize that you, me, most of us are out for a day of hard work. It has noting to do with sport or winning. We are just out to see what we can do. The results others put up are of no importance.

If you are competing for a lot of money, then you might want to take drug asage in consideration when you place your bets.

If you need to measure your performace against anyone, measure against the pros. (I expect they tend to take drugs - some sort of risk/benefit tradeoff.)