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Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech
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Firstly, it keeps on being banded around that clutched rear mechs, like the sram ones will increase chain tension and causes losses. But no one seems to be able to give numbers, just that it 'should' increases losses.

Has anyone tested this?

Secondly, if you were to test this would it be as simple as -

On lemond turbo, with powermeter (pedals)
Measuring speed,
Changing rear mech

Getting a power/speed curve from the data.

That simple?
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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It might work if you have a meticulous protocol and repeat the test enough times to average out random errors.
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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TriByran wrote:
Firstly, it keeps on being banded around that clutched rear mechs, like the sram ones will increase chain tension and causes losses. But no one seems to be able to give numbers, just that it 'should' increases losses.

Has anyone tested this?

Secondly, if you were to test this would it be as simple as -

On lemond turbo, with powermeter (pedals)
Measuring speed,
Changing rear mech

Getting a power/speed curve from the data.

That simple?

You don't really need to do that. You can just look at drive train losses as a function of power output and extrapolate from there. I.e., we know that drivetrain losses increase as a function of power because of increased chain tension. And those losses are minimal. And the variance in chain tension there dwarfs the variance from a clutch vs normal RD.

http://www.ihpva.org/...ve/PDF/hp50-2000.pdf

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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TriByran wrote:
Firstly, it keeps on being banded around that clutched rear mechs, like the sram ones will increase chain tension and causes losses. But no one seems to be able to give numbers, just that it 'should' increases losses.

Has anyone tested this?

Secondly, if you were to test this would it be as simple as -

On lemond turbo, with powermeter (pedals)
Measuring speed,
Changing rear mech

Getting a power/speed curve from the data.

That simple?

Friction Facts has tested it yes, but I can't comment on the amount of loss. Rapp's doc is prob a good thing to look at.


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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Is it known how much tension a Force CX1 derailleur actually places the chain under? Vs. a 'normal' derailleur?

Asking purely for academic reasons.....I love my X1 crit setup and enjoy the stealth of it.
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Rappstar and All,

Rappstar wrote in part: " ..... we know that drivetrain losses increase as a function of power because of increased chain tension."

That might be stating it backwards .....

While is is counter intuitive ......

Chain tension is just one more way pros have an advantage over age groupers ..... pros pedal harder and pros get a bonus in that their drive train is more efficient.


It is noted in www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf that efficiency increases linearly with load (tension).

Table 2. …….. Mechanical efficiency vs. load
Gear

Note gear 25 increases efficiency as power (tension) increases

Also as noted in http://www.ihpva.org/...ve/PDF/hp50-2000.pdf :

"Experimental results indicated that
the efficiency of the chain drive varied
as a function of chain tension. It was
found that the efficiency varied linearly
with the reciprocal of the average
chain tension with the highest efficiencies
occurring at high chain tensions
and lowest at low chain tensions. For
example, the highest efficiency measured
in the study, 98.6%, was measured
at a chain tension of 305 N and
the lowest, 80.9%, at 76.2 N."

Makes one wonder how to increase chain tension as low power ......

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...mic%20speed#p5840610

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
Last edited by: nealhe: Aug 16, 16 13:03
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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So are we getting a benefit from the clutch?
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Friction Facts has tested it yes, but I can't comment on the amount of loss. Rapp's doc is prob a good thing to look at.


I bought the package from friction facts and I don't have it. I don't see it listed on their website either. I would love to see it though...
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [Anachronism] [ In reply to ]
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Anachronism wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Friction Facts has tested it yes, but I can't comment on the amount of loss. Rapp's doc is prob a good thing to look at.


I bought the package from friction facts and I don't have it. I don't see it listed on their website either. I would love to see it though...

That info is not public other than the fact that you can garner the differences by looking at the Berner cage with the different tensions. A clutch derailleur will have more than a regular.


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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:

Friction Facts has tested it yes, but I can't comment on the amount of loss. Rapp's doc is prob a good thing to look at.

Rapp's doc does not give a nice, easy answer, per Nealhe's post.

"Analyzing the efficiency as a function of tension show that the efficiency increases with chain tension regardless of input power or rotation rate"

And they have a graph.

But then they admit this is weird.

"Clearly, these data indicate that the fundamental operation of the drive must be related to the chain tension such that the efficiency
increases with increasing tension even though the frictional losses should increase."

They go on to suggest some alternative models.
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:


Friction Facts has tested it yes, but I can't comment on the amount of loss. Rapp's doc is prob a good thing to look at.


Rapp's doc does not give a nice, easy answer, per Nealhe's post.

"Analyzing the efficiency as a function of tension show that the efficiency increases with chain tension regardless of input power or rotation rate"

And they have a graph.

But then they admit this is weird.

"Clearly, these data indicate that the fundamental operation of the drive must be related to the chain tension such that the efficiency
increases with increasing tension even though the frictional losses should increase."

They go on to suggest some alternative models.

I look at it from a simplistic manner personally. Jordan gives a lot of thought to his choices, as do I. We both give way more thought to our equipment then most. We are both looking at the total system. For me, I am definitely more risky than Jordan. The clutch derailleur is going to cost you watts, maybe 1-2 watts. If you are after every possible watts saving then I wouldn't go for a clutched RD. Then again, if a clutched RD gives you peace of mind it is worth its weight in gold.


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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
We both give way more thought to our equipment then most. We are both looking at the total system

You two are so special! You want me to send you each a cookie? :)

Quote:
The clutch derailleur is going to cost you watts, maybe 1-2 watts.

First of all, we digressed from the larger discussion of how and why chain tension affects efficiency. Now you're just throwing out 1-2W. Also I assume you don't mean "any clutched RD" because there's no reason a clutched RD has to have higher tension. It just has to not bounce. Theoretically someone could develop a TT clutched RD that has Dura-Ace tension (if, in fact, it would help, which isn't clear to me yet).

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Then again, if a clutched RD gives you peace of mind it is worth its weight in gold.

"Peace of mind" suggests you're dismissing it as a placebo effect. Dropping a chain in any of my TTs is likely catastrophic to a chance of winning. I'm not a triathlete where I can make up time later. Dropping on a 1X system is real bad. I probably have to get off the bike. I'm done. And some stage race TT's, at least in my area, involve dirt. Or sections of really bad pavement. Bouncing around a lot.

I don't know what the probabilities are. The risk of dropping is, I assume, higher without a clutch RD. What are the numbers? I don't know. I could throw my Dura-Ace RD back on and try like hell to drop chain. That's probably the best thing to do, and I may do that.

But I doubt that SRAM made a road clutch RD because no one ever drops chains on the road.
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
But I doubt that SRAM made a road clutch RD because no one ever drops chains on the road.

I doubt SRAM would stop making parts because the last generation was pretty good, might be in conflict with the business model. Especially when the general population is convinced their road bike needs something that might sometimes, under ideal circumstances, be a problem mountain biking.

Bottom line, if you make money selling things to people it's in your best interest to keep designing new things and convincing people they need them. Look at 650b vs 29er or 26er, all-mountain vs. enduro bikes, new dropout spacing standards, adventure vs. gravel vs. cross bikes, etc... They're all slightly different, slightly more specialized, possibly a couple percent more efficient one way or another, no real added capability but everyone ran to stores to get the latest and greatest.

FWIW, I ride 1x10 on both a carbon hard tail and TT bike using only a narrow wide chain ring. Zero drops in all my riding (something like 2k miles, mostly dirt). I would have a very hard time believing a TT bike, with compromised handling position, would encounter a more jarring ride than some of my dirt rides and not have a catastrophic incident. On the other hand, I've dropped the chain twice on my 2x10 road bike (while shifting) in the same time and had to resort to a chain catcher.
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [Shinny] [ In reply to ]
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Shinny wrote:
On the other hand, I've dropped the chain twice on my 2x10 road bike (while shifting) in the same time and had to resort to a chain catcher.

Well that makes since since 2x systems are designed to derail.

Good to hear about your 1x experience, though. But just to be clear, on your two 1x rigs, you're using conventional 2x RDs and not SRAM's dedicated 1x RDs?
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [Shinny] [ In reply to ]
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Shinny wrote:
trail wrote:
But I doubt that SRAM made a road clutch RD because no one ever drops chains on the road.


I doubt SRAM would stop making parts because the last generation was pretty good, might be in conflict with the business model. Especially when the general population is convinced their road bike needs something that might sometimes, under ideal circumstances, be a problem mountain biking.

Bottom line, if you make money selling things to people it's in your best interest to keep designing new things and convincing people they need them. Look at 650b vs 29er or 26er, all-mountain vs. enduro bikes, new dropout spacing standards, adventure vs. gravel vs. cross bikes, etc... They're all slightly different, slightly more specialized, possibly a couple percent more efficient one way or another, no real added capability but everyone ran to stores to get the latest and greatest.

FWIW, I ride 1x10 on both a carbon hard tail and TT bike using only a narrow wide chain ring. Zero drops in all my riding (something like 2k miles, mostly dirt). I would have a very hard time believing a TT bike, with compromised handling position, would encounter a more jarring ride than some of my dirt rides and not have a catastrophic incident. On the other hand, I've dropped the chain twice on my 2x10 road bike (while shifting) in the same time and had to resort to a chain catcher.

To me, the biggest benefit of a clutched derailleur is the reduction in "chain slap" on a bike ridden on rough(ish) surfaces, more than anything else...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Quote:
We both give way more thought to our equipment then most. We are both looking at the total system


You two are so special! You want me to send you each a cookie? :)

Quote:
The clutch derailleur is going to cost you watts, maybe 1-2 watts.


First of all, we digressed from the larger discussion of how and why chain tension affects efficiency. Now you're just throwing out 1-2W. Also I assume you don't mean "any clutched RD" because there's no reason a clutched RD has to have higher tension. It just has to not bounce. Theoretically someone could develop a TT clutched RD that has Dura-Ace tension (if, in fact, it would help, which isn't clear to me yet).

Quote:
Then again, if a clutched RD gives you peace of mind it is worth its weight in gold.


"Peace of mind" suggests you're dismissing it as a placebo effect. Dropping a chain in any of my TTs is likely catastrophic to a chance of winning. I'm not a triathlete where I can make up time later. Dropping on a 1X system is real bad. I probably have to get off the bike. I'm done. And some stage race TT's, at least in my area, involve dirt. Or sections of really bad pavement. Bouncing around a lot.

I don't know what the probabilities are. The risk of dropping is, I assume, higher without a clutch RD. What are the numbers? I don't know. I could throw my Dura-Ace RD back on and try like hell to drop chain. That's probably the best thing to do, and I may do that.

But I doubt that SRAM made a road clutch RD because no one ever drops chains on the road.

The number quoted are based on extrapolating against the berner cage with lower tension that FF has produced. I don't know enough about the engineering of the clutch type derailleur but from I have been told it has a higher tension than a stock non-clutch. It hasn't been quantified, and frankly, I didn't need to look into it further as I am not intending to move off the Berner cage. With all the being said, I have dropped a chain in a race once during some really bad roads, hitting a pot-hole and hard braking at the same time to avoid a car. I reached down with my fingers, pulled the chain up and maybe lost 1-2 seconds at the most. That is in 1000+ race miles fwiw.


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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Piece of mind is now sorted thanks to the clutched mech.

I honestly can't believe I didn't drop the chain at maastricht, the course was ridiculous, cobbles, farm roads, mud etc.


The other thing is the road clutched mech feels very different to my MTB sram clutched mech.

The MTB one holds on and creates tonnes of tension, the chain barely moves side to side at all.
The road one is much slacker, but seems to engage when throwing the chain up and down.

Yes there is a tiny bit more resistance. But not huge. The shifting is also FAR FAR crisper than the brand new force mech it replaced.
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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Mountain Biking has been using this equipment for years, at the highest level it is all they use, if the performance loss was significant enough it wouldn't be used. Comes down to what is more important, an extremely minor loss in watts on a 1x system or having a heavier 2x bike.
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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If you read and accept the pdf,
more tension = more efficiency (i.e., less relative wattage losses).

So, ...

A clutched RD typically increases chain tension.
Which means more efficiency.
More efficiency is good.

So why are folks saying a clutched RD is bad ?

Am I missing something ?

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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Presumably they didn't use a clutched mech in the tests.
I think the school of thought suggests tension is good to a point, then it's not and efficiency goes down again.

When I fit a chain to my single speed it feels crappy up to a certain tension, but then put too much in and it turns to pedalling trough treacle.
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [TriByran] [ In reply to ]
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True, but I doubt the extra tension from a clutched RD would exceed what was measured in the study.

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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [SiRcivic27] [ In reply to ]
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SiRcivic27 wrote:
Mountain Biking has been using this equipment for years, at the highest level it is all they use, if the performance loss was significant enough it wouldn't be used. Comes down to what is more important, an extremely minor loss in watts on a 1x system or having a heavier 2x bike.

Right and yet, USAIN BOLT wins the 100 in a baggy kit with a gold chain while his top speed tops out at what, something like 27mph? I am 100% confident USAIN BOLT would be better with a better fitting kit, but he is sooo good and his arrogance is so high it doesn't matter. The same thing can be said about Chrissie Wellington. She was winning on all kinds of disasters in equipment, she was just vastly superior. The average person does not have this luxury.

Just because a top rider does something, does not mean it is the absolute fastest option.


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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Neal,

I had similar questions about the Spicer paper when I read it earlier this year. I had a talk with Jason at Friction Facts about it and this was his response:

"Excellent question on the Spicer paper. I give Spicer a lot of credit for publishing one of the first papers on drivetrain friction, yet he made a few incorrect assumptions about losses that threw off his final calculations, plus the equipment he used had limited precision.
The question you pose, about my results differing from Spicer's has been previously asked and addressed in a Lennard Zinn column. If you have a couple minutes of spare time, and are interested, check this (scroll down towards the bottom of the column).
http://velonews.competitor.com/...sene-and-more_281358

Spicer also stated in his conclusion, "It was found that chain-line offset and chain lubrication have a negligible effect on efficiency under laboratory conditions."
We now know this is very much incorrect."


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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
If you read and accept the pdf,
more tension = more efficiency (i.e., less relative wattage losses).

So, ...

A clutched RD typically increases chain tension.
Which means more efficiency.
More efficiency is good.

So why are folks saying a clutched RD is bad ?

Am I missing something ?

If I understand correctly more tension normally means more power and more losses, but the losses increase at a lower rate than power increases, there for being more efficient. Adding tension without increasing power simply increases losses.
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Re: Testing of drive chain efficiency + clutched rear mech [Anachronism] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Anachronism and All,

+1

(Your excellent executive summary)

Long version with excerpts from the reports here:

HPV #50 Spring of 2000 Spicer

The data for the chain and the pulley tooth indicate that the component temperature rises with the input power.

For the pulley tooth, at 50 W input power, the maximum pixel value is approximately 23 units; at 100 W, 35 units and at 150 W, 65 units. These results are in rough agreement with the loss models presented previously where the frictional losses are directly proportional to the input power.

Unfortunately, the power loss in each of these cases is not proportional to the input power owing to the dependence of efficiency on chain tension. Using measured values for efficiency under the conditions for the data in Fig. 5 (97.2% for 150 W, 94.4% for 100 W and 85.5% for 50 W) indicates that 4.2 W of power were lost at 150 W input; 5.6 W at 100 W input and 7.3 W at 50 W input.

Obviously, for a lower power loss, the temperature rise should be lower if the lost power is converted entirely to heat by frictional loss. It would be expected that the temperature rise would be lowest for the 150 W input test since the measured power loss is lowest for this case.

DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSIONS Tests of efficiency for the derailleur type chain drive indicate that the overall efficiencies for the transfer of power from the front drive sprocket to the rear sprocket range from 80.9% to 98.6% depending on the conditions of drive operation. Primary factors affecting the efficiency include the sizes of the sprockets in the drive and the tension in the chain.

It was found that larger sprockets provide more efficient transfer of power while smaller sprockets proved to be less efficient. Simple, frictional loss models were developed that gave sprocket-size loss variations that agreed with those variations measured experimentally. Typically, a 2–5% loss difference was measured between the 52–11 and the 52–21 sprocket combinations depending on the drive operating conditions.

======================

HPV #52 Summer of 2001 Kyle (different apparatus than the Spicer tests)

However, for determining the rank order between transmissions, since they were all tested under identical conditions, no correction is necessary. The efficiencies reported in this article include ergometer-wheel drive losses, so the actual transmission efficiencies would be higher by 2 to 2.5%.

27-speed: Shimano A Shimano Ultegra 27-speed mountain-bike transmission with three front chainrings (44/32/22 teeth) and a 9-speed rear cluster (12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 23, 26, 30, and 34 teeth). Because of time constraints, only 15 of the 27 gears were tested: (1) 22/34; (3) 22/26; (4) 32/34; (7) 22/20; (9) 32/26; (10) 44/34; (11) 22/16; (15) 32/20; (16) 44/26; (18) 22/12; (20) 32/16; (21) 44/20; (24) 32/12; (25) 44/16; and (27) 44/12.

CONCLUSIONS By viewing the curves, several general observations and conclusions can be made. 1. Efficiency generally increases with the load—for all transmissions. Figures 1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 12, or 14 all show this trend. Although friction increases with chain load, rpm, and other factors [8], obviously the residual friction in a gear train becomes less important as the input power increases, while the friction factors that increase with load go up less rapidly than the load.

3. As the gear ratio increases, the efficiency tends to decrease for all transmission types. This is illustrated by the trend lines in figures 6, 8, 10, and 11. Even though the greatest efficiencies are sometimes near the highest gear ratios, the average efficiency decreases with higher ratios, (the high efficiencies were: Shimano 4 = gear 1, Rohloff = gear 9, Browning = gear 2, and Shimano 27 = gear 21).

An average 2% difference in efficiency is thus easily possible if the wrong gears are chosen. If racers, or even commuting or touring cyclists, could choose optimum gears they would be hundreds of meters ahead at the end of 60 km (37 mi). For example, if Lance Armstrong, in the Tour de France 58.5-km time trial (36.4 mi) were to choose the wrong gear, a drop of 2% in efficiency would cause him to be 410 meters behind (27 seconds) at the end of the time trial, easily enough to lose the stage [3]. Incidentally, Armstrong averaged about 54 kph (33.6 mph) for the time trial (58.5 km long = 36.4 mi). With commuting riders who travel 24 kph (15 mph), instead of 54 kph (33.6 mph), it only gets worse. A 2% drop in efficiency would lead to an 800-meter gap (about 2 minutes). The reason for the increasing gap is that the slower cyclist spends much more time on the course [3]. The point is, why waste energy when it is unnecessary.

5. The tests show that some gears are inefficient.

Derailleur gears On the other hand, factors affecting the efficiency of derailleur gears become clear by examining the curves in figures 10 and 11. For example, a 12-tooth sprocket seems to cause inefficiency. In the Shimano 27-speed, gears 4, 9, 15, 18, and 24 have the lowest efficiency. The two gears with the lowest efficiency of the 15 tested, both use a 12-tooth sprocket. The gears with 12-tooth sprockets (18, 24 and 27) have an average efficiency of 91.2%, while those involving 16-tooth sprockets (11, 20 and 25) have an average efficiency of 93.5%.

Apparently the sharp angle of chain link bend in the 12 causes increased friction compared to larger sprockets. So it appears that larger gears than 12 are necessary for efficient operation.

When there is a choice of gear ratios that are close, cyclists should choose the gearing combination with larger diameters [8].

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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