do them.

Yes and No....

But for right now tell the guy to go screw himself and do it your way until your IM......

Now after you IM stop being a sissy wall hanger and learn flip turns. You'll be able to fit in more yardage in less time and you will stop hanging on the walls for rest.

Does that help?

Tim

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I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

Do the flip-turns!!! They are not a big deal. If you want to swim with the Master's group you have to follow the rules. Doing flip-turns makes circle swimming with multiple swimmers in the lane a lot smoother. If you don't want to do the turns then swim on your own.

what hasbeen said - X 2

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rob reddy

Do you stop your bike, unclip, get off and walk your bike anytime you make a sharp turn? Learn to do flip turns. If you are swimming in a Masters workout, who ever is in your lane will appreciate it.

Mark

man, harsh crowd.

Your swimming will benefit from flip turns because you will be able to go faster and then be able to swim with faster people and get faster yet. Besides, it's the right way to do things.

BUT . . . . . . don't change anything major three weeks before a big race. Tell your coach that you would really like to start doing them, but you have to get the IM done first. If your coach can't understand that, then I would really consider looking into another masters swim program (although sometimes we are all stuck with limited options). Or looking into firing the coach because he obviously can't think if he believes that you should change something this significant so close to a big race.

Just the 'has been' swim crowd :)

3 wks out from IM? Fuh-get-about-it. Focus on bilateral breathing and your last bit of fitness and then come home to an off-season of flip-turn fun. I was clocking a 1:01/100 with an open turn and comfortably doing 100s on the 1:25 with an open turn in my preparation for my first IM. I've since worked with competitive swimming friends to develop my flip turns.

an hour of flip turns?

I didn't think they were that hard...

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flip turns will help you in the pool setting to be sure, but they also have the benefit (once you get the hang of them) of maintaining your swimming speed rhythm between laps and in open water. An open turn can really throw off your rhythm and timing (two of the most important aspects of distance swimming). Do as many as you feel comfortable with now, but after the IM, make a point to do them all of the time. Your lungs will get stronger as well (added bonus).

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machines don't win races, muscles do.

I do not understand why flip turns are so important? If someone else is swimming in my lane as long as I am out of the way by the time they get there isn't that what matters? When you do a flip turn doesn't that mess up your rhytm just as much? All of my questions are coming from someone who can not master the flip turn but still I do not understand the benefit.

i disagree with saying that flip turns are ineffective to rythm, because done properly, (like in breast or fly) they are highly effective and fast. i like them, and do them alot because i don't like flipping upside down over and over and over again. something about that makes me feel slightly sick. so i mix it up, and do flip turns on short sets and open turns on long sets. personal preferance i guess...

i start a master's swimming program this week...i'm sure no one will give a crap either way.

Flip turns work on the core muscles. As a non-swimmer, since I got in the habit of doing them (thanks for my masters coach), I've found that I haven't had to do crunches in many years. I used to do 50-100 crunches as part of strength training, and now don't even bother.

Flip turns are more effective for maintaining rythm vs. open turns because in doing an effective flip turn, you are still trying to be as smooth in the water as possible. Good tuck, streamlined & powerful launch. To those who ask "how many walls do you flip-turn on in a lake or ocean?" -- well, the same question applies to open-turns: "how many walls can you grab, pull your head and arm out of the water, breath, then push off with?"

The only reason I can think of where lane mates might appreciate flip-turns over open-turns is because most flip turns are less wave-inducing than open turns (since most swimmers I see doing open turns tend to be too close to the surface & not streamlined). I guess this might be one "pro" reason for open turns -- it better simulates choppy water!

When in Rome...

Do the flips.

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I think flip turns are hugely overrated. I once spent weeks trying to perfect the damn things, and every time I would end up with chlorinated water up my nose, a huge headache, and slower swimming. There are no walls in lakes, rivers or the sea where we compete, and sure you don't hang off the wall in a tri either, but the thing is there is no practice needed to just stop at the wall and turn.

For my money, flip turns are one of those givens of competitive swimming that has no use for the triathlete, but we are meant to do them because swimmers do.

Really, who cares?

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kiwipat

per ardua ad astra

I agree with that. I'm with kittycat also about the getting sick part. I think I have a sensitive inner ear. After about the fourth flip turn I start getting nauseated. Also, if we are swimming sprints and I am really sucking air, by the time I get a breath out of my turn I am about to pass out and am severe oxygen debt for the rest of the length. I prefer the open turn - it's just more relaxing. However, the master coach is hinting to me that I am a wuss, with comments like "you know, a stroke that nice deserves a flipturn." Peer pressure.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Obviously an argument between the haves and have-nots. The haves obviously being superior and the have-nots just jealous.

Don't listen to these people. if you don't want to do flip turns don't do them. Are you paying for masters? Yes? Then the coach is working for you. Tell him the way you want it to be. End of story.

Swim turns for tri training are highly overrated. I don't do them because I don't like them. I have swum 57 flat in my last three Ironman races going easy and beaten a lot of the fish. I only swim 2500yds twice a week. I NEVER do flip turns. Last I checked there are no walls in a triathlon. Doing a flip turn forces you to hold your breath longer than you would swimming aerobically in a triathlon, particularily an Ironman. Doing open turns maintains the steady breathing pattern thus you can swim harder for longer. I think flip turns are for people who swim a ton and have a monster swimming base. For us 2-3X per week short yardage swimmers flipping is too hypoxic and makes for a worse, not better, workout.

I also don't alternate breathing. I never do it in a race so why do it in training.

I've pissed off many a masters coach by being stubborn but I never got knocked out of the fast lane.

Kiwipat, by figuring out how to prevent water up the nose during a flip turn by managing air expelled through the nose, you improve you ability to calmly handle any situation where you begin to snarf water up your nose. It's been my experience that water nose snarfing occurs frequently in open water swims, so the skill is transferrable.

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Yes, I too am on Facebook. And LinkedIn. And Twitter. Which begs the question - do I exist in the physical world? Do I?

Re: Strengthening core...

I was wondering if anyone else noticed this. As a high school swimmer who ran cross country and track (er, other way around, I think) I never needed to do sit-ups because of all the flip turns I did. Plus I always had a washboard stomach. Heh.

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"The hero is someone in continual opposition to the status quo. The hero is always becoming himself." Jos� Ortega y Gasset.

"The enthusiasm (absorbing or controlling possession of the mind by any interest or pursuit) is needed before breaking the milestone and not after." Sergio Escutia, on Lukas Verzbicas' subdued reaction to breaking 4 minutes in the mile.

Do flip turns really make you hypoxic? I think that is a great reason to do them!!! Don't you want to increase your vo2max? I guess there is a reason why swimmers take so well to triathlon. We have no problem with the aerobic "stresses" of flip turns.

They will help your rhythm. They will put much less strain on your shoulder. You will actually be able to race the faster people. You will learn how to be more hydrodynamically efficient in the water. And apparently it will benefit your lungs too. If swimmers don't have to think twice about the "strain" on them from flip-turning, then wouldn't you want your lungs to get bigger too?

Hey, I am all for learning flip turns (I wish I could do them, because I would). But that list of benefits sounds a little iffy. Does holding your breath for that turn really help anything?

BTW, I crack up when swimmers talk about coaches getting upset if you breathe on your first stroke after your turn. Come on! I guarantee when I get turns down I'll take a HUGE breath going in, and on the very first stroke coming out of it!

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In short, I agree with those who have said to stick with wall turns until after you IM.

But doesn't it seem that flip turns for triathletes taking up swimming, is a lot like the argument for shaving your legs when triathles take up biking. It is just a bunch of peer pressure to do something that the sport does. Sure there are benefits, but I think that most people, myself included, don't do them for the "benefits" as much as they do to not be rediculed by peers. When I show up to a crit with unshaven legs, my teammates make fun of me. When I don't flip turn, fellow swimmers ask me if I'd like a pointer on how to be a better turner. So I shave, and flip-turn, so everyone else will just leave me alone and let me get back to my training.