Dedication and practice are good, but make sure you have a lesson on your technique first.

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

Great... But does this answer the OPs question...?

Id be interested also, in say 6 months is it outside the realms of reality to go from say 1:50 pace to 1:34-140 pace?

Months for the first jump, years(or never) for the next couple, especially given your 2/3 times a week volume. IF you are an older AOS athlete, it will take many more times a week and much larger volume, over a long period of time to get to 1;40/30 100M pace, if ever. 1;30 pace is just not attainable for everyone in that group, and a lot of detail to stroke and practice is needed..

Anyway a very general question, with a little less general answer...

It depends on so many variables.

Here was my own progression. I was a solid d3 collegiate runner with a 14:40 5k PR. I am 6 feet 2, 168 lbs.
I did a triathlon with a 1000 yard swim 1 month after my last track race, swimming about 8000 yards per week and my swim pace was 1:37 per 100 yards.
A few months later I did an Olympic distance triathlon with similar swim training and my swim pace was 1:30 per 100 yards (25 minutes).
I did some road racing for around 6 months before getting back into triathlons with some serious dedication. I swam 4-6 times per week for around 18000-20000 yards, for around 3-4 months before getting my Olympic swim pace down to 1:23 per 1000 yards (23 minutes). I then spent the next year "full send" including getting personal lessons as well as swimming with masters groups. My mileage was 20-28k. I managed to get my Olympic swim pace down to 1:15 per 100 yards (20 minutes), which is about where I stayed for a few years with similar to slightly less swim mileage. At that point work, life and kids got into the way for a very long time, and I am just now starting to get close to those times again.

So yes, you can drop 10 seconds per 100 quite easily, especially if you are only swimming 2:00 minute pace. You don't have to swim nearly as much as I did to seriously improve. Doing at least 1 set of 20-40 by 25s or 50s per week nearly all out will help improve your efficiency in the water as well as give you a vo2max stimulus. Mix it up different days with super short rests and slightly longer rests (equal time swim and recovery) Hardcore vo2 max training (ie 5x200s with equal recovery) is a bad idea for poor, mediocre and even decent swimmers, your form will go to shit and you can't produce enough force to generate high amounts of lactate anyway. I do lots of endurance and tempo (LT plus 2 to 4 seconds per 100) training in the off season in addition to sprints *0x25 full recovery and that "dense 25s or 50s" set I described above.

So after 10 years of 'training' then I was stuck at the 2:00/100m point. I was totally fine for the distance, but wasn't getting any quicker. And I was doing 3x 3km+ sets a week of structured training in the pool. Had some occasional technique clinics, and that may come down to the 1:50 for a little while, but then drift back to the 2mins.

Then when I was stuck in a consistent 2:10 rut I switched it out to go to a squad. So 3 x a week squad plus 2 coached technique sessions a week. So ended up swimming 5 times a week for about 6 months. And got down to 1:35/100 fairly consistently (as in holding that pace throughout a set including for 400m).

Not sure what happened, but I've lost that and back to 1:55s despite pretty regular 2 squad a weeks for last 6 months. So for me it's not just the frequency of swimming, or even the squad but what lane you're in. For the last few years where I've dropped back in my swimming I've been leading the lane as opposed to pushing myself to hang onto the feet of the next lane up. In water I need something to push me, why my OW is slower than my pool swimming - I just don't push. So swimming is opposite of cycle training. On the bike to get the best training value it's better to be the strongest rider in a slower group (ie spending my time on the front) than the weakest in the faster group (ie hiding at the back of the pack drafting all the way round). For swimming, for me at least, it's way better to have to really push to keep the feet of person in front, lose part of the interval recovery time to catchup to the lane for the next bit of the set. Work at 10/10 for the bits where it's supposed to be 8/10.

Which brings me to my personal issue with swimming. At the end of a hill climb on the bike or zwift session I can push myself to the point of nausea and complete exhaustion. Same with running intervals, or a 33km run, push myself to the point of being completely drained. But in the pool, my technique limits to the point I can't use mental strength to overcome physical fatigue. There's a totally different mechanism to 'cracking' swim improvements that simply dedicating time or even mind to cannot acheive what you can achieve in other disciplines.

I went from a 27:39 for a 1650 in 2005 to a 23:00 in 2011 by swimming 4 days a week about 3000-3500 yds a session

So a 1:41 to a 1:24 in 6 years

I recently started swimming again and have gone from 1:55 to 1:35 in about 8 weeks

My n=1 experience. 1st year of training 1:48 -> 1:35 pace. One year of training now dropped me 1:19 -> 1:16 pace (scy). So 10 years of training brought me from 1:40's to 1:16 pace for 1,000yd TT. Average 2-3 swims/week, 3,000yd per session.

[Which brings me to my personal issue with swimming. At the end of a hill climb on the bike or zwift session I can push myself to the point of nausea and complete exhaustion. Same with running intervals, or a 33km run, push myself to the point of being completely drained. But in the pool, my technique limits to the point I can't use mental strength to overcome physical fatigue. There's a totally different mechanism to 'cracking' swim improvements that simply dedicating time or even mind to cannot acheive what you can achieve in other disciplines]


Very interesting point. I can relate.

Have you tried using caffeine gels? The Clif gel Expresso 100mg are pretty good.

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

For me, those milestones weren’t marked by total time trainings but instead directly linked to the number of times per week I was swimming.
2:20-1:50 - 2 x per week
1:50-1:40 - 3 per week
1:40-1:35 - 4 per week

I’ve improved my technique recently but am only able to get in the pool 3 x per week. I know I need to go back up to 4/5 to make that next jump.

I started swimming around 2 years ago and have done 2 full Ironman and several olympic and 1 70.3. I have been stuck at around 1:50 pace for a long time now and cannot figure it out. It is so hard to tell what you are actually doing and what you think you are doing.

I finally booked an appointment for Saturday for a video analysis session. Kind of nervous to see how ugly my technique actually is.

I have been swimming 4 times a week for the past 4 weeks or so but still can't find the speed so I'm hoping I find some low hanging fruit by watching myself

Two times a week - you'll see a little bit of progression from the couch and plateau fairly quickly more than likely around the 2:10-2:40/100m pacing.

Three times a week - you'll improve for a few months with an initial jump in the first 6 weeks with continued improvement for the next 2-3 months and plateau around 1:55 - 2:20/100m pacing.

Two to three times a week is such a low amount of volume in the water for swimming. It is the most skill dependent of the three disciplines and that skill can only be improved with time in the water that develops both technique and the fitness needed to support it.

I hope this helps,

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Which circles back to the age old question-if it takes such a huge investment in time to only save 10-20 mins on the swim is it even worth it when the same time invested in bike run would easily see double the gains...for your average ager

Which circles back to the age old question-if it takes such a huge investment in time to only save 10-20 mins on the swim is it even worth it when the same time invested in bike run would easily see double the gains...for your average ager //

But that is just a made up analogy. Suppose that AG'er is already maxed out in the bike/run? And if not, how can you know what the improvement would be even if extra swim time was dedicated to those two? If you look at your "average" age grouper, then putting in the time to swim faster also nets faster bikes and runs. History has shown time and again, swim faster and you will bike faster with no extra work there.


The lions share of pointy end triathletes typically have good to great swims. there are very few FOP'ers that dont swim well, so that should tell everyone where they should improve "first">>

At 37 I began swimming and started around 2:10/100 for a couple of hundred yards. Within about 4 months I was up to 1,000 yards around 1:55 or so average pace.

Then I joined Masters swim swimming 3x a week for about 7500-8500 yards. Within 3-4 months I was in the mid 1:40s for a 2500 yard workout, and in the high 1:30s about 6-7 months after. About a year later I was low 1:30s and could usually do 100 yard repeats on 1:40 coming in around 1:28-1:29ish.

In triathlons I was around the top 60% for overall swim when I begn, and by mid second tri season was typically around the top 20% and even cracked a top 15 overall swim twice in smaller local races.

I've since plateaued and don't do masters swim anymore due to work.

Only if you think that the fatigue generated in the swim doesn’t impact the bike and run. By putting a limited amount of time into the swim you are guaranteed to rob fitness from the bike and run to complete the swim.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

This is such a tricky question jpro - too many variables.

But think more in terms of years than months - multiple years.


If someone holds 20 minutes for a 1000 time trial, but can do somewhere between 19-23 and 42-46 for a 25 and 50 they may have a better and more rapid chance of decreasing their 1000 time down with a good support environment and someone who can train them.

I'm always confused by the logic in minimizing swim time. I mean why participate in triathlon if you don't enjoy swimming? I do triathlon because I like all 3 sports. Do people honestly dread swimming? Irrespective of the results, balancing the sports if part of the fun!

But how much fitness? Looking at it another way how much fitness am I robbing form the ride and run by devoting 8 hours of my time to swimming every week that could otherwise be spent running and riding...

Well swimming is generally an arse ache to do-super early mornings for squad, travel time to pool, pool fees, staring at a boring black line, chlorine, stuffy air etc, slow limited gains. Sure swimming in a lake or beach though is great.

Compared to running or cycling-fresh air, scenery, friendly chats, no fees, can generally do it anytime anywhere, results generally directly corelate to effort etc...

Understood and agree. My pool time is quite relaxing. I find swimming peaceful with out real stimuli except the water and the drills. I must say I find swimming quite serene. Your point is well taken. I drive 20 mins to my pool. On the way back I always grab a Starbucks!

I always grab a starbucks too in the morning for my dad and I. I like the routine of it and seeing familiar faces when picking it up. I get a grande latte 3 shots, he gets a cappucino grande 3 shots. What do you get?

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https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

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Yep,swimming is just horrible..Hate it in summer when I actually have to wear shoes for the walk to the pool. That black asphalt is a bitch!

:)

Fresh air - swim outdoors (if you can)

scenery - my favourite colour is blue and swimmers are not known for the modesty in swim wear

friendly chats - can do this before, during and after training. go for coffee after.

anytime / anywhere - sure you can't swim like you can run or ride but most places have a pool

results to effort - whenever i have trained more and put more effort I have gotten a bit better at swimming

early mornings - swim after work or go solo

travel time - sure, cycle there if you can

pool fees - cheap compared to bike shit

black line - does anyone actually look at the line or just use it like a guide. you have to follow the white line on the road :)

chlorine - would prefer chlorine than swimming in people's piss, shit and sweat :)

stuffy air - see item above - go outside if you can

slow gains - 1-2 seconds per 100 is actually a pretty significant improvement in swimming terms