Put your TT bike on a trainer and ride in your aero position longer and longer. If you want to do a 4:40 bike split you better be able to sit on your trainer in an aero tuck for 4:40. No strength training required.

Agreed. The best way to build the specific muscle groups for such a specific thing is to do that specific thing longer and with more intensity in training. You don't have to be that flexible to bike harder.

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

Thanks for the reply! I intend to do that type of training, for sure. I do believe that's a big part of it, but that's not the question I'm asking about. The obvious "train more, train better" is not really what I'm after, which is why I asked for people who have specifically done phsyio work to better handle aggressive positions. The idea is more to ask "what does it look like to leave no stone unturned" in the pursuit of an aero position, rather than "what have I failed at doing so far". The reason I'm asking in the first place is, for one example, Dan Bigham's approach. He's said their approach was to find a position and then do physio (strength and flexibility training, as I understand the European concept of physio) work to put out power once you have it. Yes, he was riding for 4 minutes (then an hour, I guess), but the concepts apply.

I 100% agree. I KNOW that will work and that it's necessary, but it's not this question. I also know that there are athletes who have done strength training that specifically and deliberately supports (edit: is intended to support) aero position power output and that's what I'm curious about. So what has that looked like for someone who has done it? I'm going to be in the gym doing some weight lifting, for this and other general health reasons, so I'm asking what modifications, if any, to the typical squat and deadlift (or other exercises) have people done that have helped. I'm not asking what I can do on the bike. That's a different, and you're right, almost certainly more important, topic, but it's not what I'm asking about. Maybe your answer is "I've done strength training and nothing helped except riding more in aero on the trainer and not outside", but that isn't exactly what y'all have said. "Ride in aero more" is not really an answer to the questions I've asked.

I could never sit in an aero position on my trainer for 4:40, but have done it for 12:00 outdoors actually riding.

Just pointing out that not only does it not have to be a trainer, outdoor riding is closer to....outdoor riding....than a trainer.

I have nothing against trainers.

Ok. The big difference is that Dan and Ineos have maxed out every other variable in their training, so leaving no stone unturned makes sense. What doesn't make sense is to continue looking under stones when you still have half a meal under the first one. A 4:54 PR suggests a fair bit to be gained before searching for off-the-bike solutions.

It's likely that adding 2 hours of strength/flexibility training per week will make you faster on the bike. It's also likely that adding 2 hours per week on the aero bike instead will make you even faster.

If you're dead-set on adding strength you just need to look at what muscles are used and how they are used. Very closed hip angle suggests very deep squats. Planks may be helpful for the similar isometric loading. But really it comes down to what parts of your specific body are limiting you in that specific position.

That's a fair point, trainer is just my go-to. Outside riding does have built-in aero position breaks for turns, stop signs, etc, but then again so do races.

I must be unclear somehow. I'll try to simplify a little.

First, I WILL be in the gym because I think lifting weights is healthy and helpful for life and I feel much more fragile and weaker generally and specifically in endurance sports when I don't lift weights. Ultimately, I'm going to lift weights. I'm not trading it for more time on the bike or more time running. It's not a situation where I have limited time and I'm choosing lifting over riding.

Second, those are great recommendations! Deep squats is something I considered, but I also haven't focused on specifically going deep and I like that rec a lot. I'm a bit ambivalent on planks given that squat and deadlift have some isometric components in the core similar to what planks would target, but I may include that and it takes a relatively short time to do anyway. Have you done either of those to good effect? That's a pretty important part of the questions I have. I definitely have some theoretical exercises in mind, but I'm curious what strength training HAS WORKED for triathletes or time trialists who have actually done it.

Ok, gotcha. I was just confused because it seems like you want to optimize a suboptimal plan.

If you're lifting for fragile/weakness reasons there's an additional caveat that you don't want to dedicate so much time to aero position specific exercises that you lose gains in the other areas that you originally targeted. The general cycling specific exercises are probably a good starting point, just modified slightly for a more tucked position.

Squat and deadlift do have core elements and may well be more effective for holding aero. I just recommended planks because it is more similar to the position and also has a similar shoulder support physiology.

As I'm sure you can guess, I have not dedicated gym time specifically to holding an aero position, but I have done a 70.3 bike split under 2:00.

What wheels and tires do you use?

I use Hunt’s TT disc rear and 65mm front TT set on Continental GP5000 TLR tires. I ran about 80psi tubeless, on a 2023 Trek Speed Concept SLR.

I’m not sure how relevant all of that is for strength training, but at this point, why not just make this into a “help me go a lot faster” thread. It seems like that’s where we’re at now (and I won’t complain about that, especially if it works)!

6’ (183cm)
196lbs (86kg) (at the Ironman mentioned, but now I’m closer to 175lbs)
FTP: ~290w, and it wouldn’t be too far off to assume I could theoretically make it to ~320w in aero. I’ve been close to 360w before on the road bike, but it’s been a while. I would likely be around 310w on the road bike and still about that same 290w in aero at the moment.

The other thing is that holding a position delivering an aerobic load is quite a bit different than activating the same doing an anaerbic workload (typical of resistance training). You can close your hip angle all you want doing deep squats and planks but unless it is long duration, then you're just gettting good at doing fast twitch stuff using similar groups. This may or may not translate to on the bike position holding capabilities when we get to the 20 min to 4.5 hrs range.

The OTHER thing that everyone leaves out in the trainer vs live outdoor word is the amount of force air exerts to hold you back in your seat and in that position. That retarding force of air makes it easier to hold aero vs on the trainer when you have zero external force pushing you "back and up". No matter how closer the aero position some air is getting into the chest cavity pushing your torso "up" (lightening the load on the saddle) and all of the air is hitting your body pushing you back into your saddle vs falling forward. That's partially why holding aero outdoors is easier. You don't need to ride 4.5 hrs on the trainer in aero, to hold 4.5 hrs largely in aero outdoors. It is less work doing it outdoor (I can't draw a free body diagram on the ST forum to show the forces at play....need a whiteboard for that).

The faster you go outdoors, the easier it is to stay aero from a retarding force/lift angle, however, to go fast you also have more discomfort from exerting wattage (which it is case indoors anyway). Indoor riding the retarding force is coming from your trainer, not from air pushing back on you (rolling resistance ignored for a moment to simplify this discussion)

Repeating the answer you don't seem to want to hear, but nothing is going to help you cycle better in the aero position and be able to hold it longer as much as just cycling more in the aero position. Boring but that's the truth.

As for flexibility. If you have some specific inflexibility sure why not. But what you will need to work on is probably specific to you.

Strength training isn't that complex. Improve leg strength through a reasonably full range of motion and it will help cycle performance. It doesn't need to be that specific to be matching up joint angles from an aero position to lifting.

I see why people get frustrated with this forum. It's not an answer I "don't seem to want to hear", it's just not an answer to the question I asked! I didn't ask "how can I get faster in the aero position?". Instead, what I was very clear in asking is "what strength training has helped make people faster in aero position". See how that's different? I wanted to start a discussion about the specifics of strength training that has made people better. Instead, nobody has offered much about that and it appears, from the way the question has been answered so far, that the answer is: no one here so far knows or has tried strength interventions specifically aimed at improving riding in aero to positive effect.

I appreciate and respect the opinion that it won't help me to do strength training and that riding in aero is the ONLY way to get faster in the aero position. Maybe that's even 100% true!!! It's still not answering the question I asked. I do think after hearing it so frequently that it's worth considering how much I train in aero vs. sitting up (which isn't much, honestly, except that I don't train exclusively on the trainer and I do have quite a few stoplights and signs that require coming out of aero on all my normal routes). I really do mean that I appreciate it! It's helpful to refocus toward the things that will make the MOST difference, and I'll do that, not least because y'all have all pointed that direction so adamantly so many times. STILL, it's really frustrating to read answers to a question I never asked, and then to be told how much I'm wasting my time in asking the original question. I'm curious EVEN IF it doesn't help me. I would welcome someone saying "I tried strength training, here's what I did, I was not faster when I did it". No one has said that yet. No one has given me much about the questions I asked, except a couple recommendations (which are admittedly very good ones) about replicating the movement angles of riding a super aggressive position.

Here's a similar point, so that maybe y'all can get at what I'm asking instead of what you want to tell me about how much you know (even if you're right, though no one asked me how much I ride in aero in training). Ben Kanute does a ton of what I believe to be pretty goofy one-off strength training movements. Are those notably improving his ability to ride in his aggressively low position? Should I, if I will definitively already spend time in the gym, try to replicate that type of strength movement? Are pistol squats and single leg dumbbell deadlifts going to improve my aero riding, if I'm generally flexible enough to fit my position just fine already? I understand there are some specifics to my body, but that only adds to the question I wanted to discuss. What was YOUR (or your athlete's) limitation, how did you attempt to address it with strength training, and did that work (i.e. did it make them faster in the same position or allow the same power output in an even better/faster/lower position)?

I apologize if it comes off as rude, this thread just isn't what I was hoping to open a discussion about so far.

I do heavy ass-to-grass front & back squats and make the pedal really heavy, stand up and ride for an hour often. I don't seat down at all. Those two have helped me to improve my bike big time.

Maybe there is no strength training that any of us are aware of that makes one faster riding in the aero position.

The reality is the static and dynamic forces involved in cycling are miniscule given that they have to be aerobically sustained . Strength training by contrast involved anaerobic systems that are barely used in a cycling context unless you are Mark Cavendish having to sprint in a standing aero position at the end of a 220 km your de France stage.

Just to be clear I do strength training of some sort almost every day for general health and longevity reasons. I am not aware of anything I do that helps me ride faster in aero though.

If there is something glad to hear. Flexibility and mobility on the other hand I can see. I am almost 58 and body does not fold over and stretch out and bend backward and twist like it used to.

Still holding out hope to sustain a six-pack to age sixty but almost certain that is not helping me ride faster in aero

I understand better now. You're doing the strength training either way for health, even if it's not best for speed, so which workouts would help the most?

Some good suggestions in here, but I'm gonna throw in core work. You need a solid core to do anything super well on the bike, especially holding aero. Bonus, helps the swim & run too.

If I were trapped in a gym with no cardio equipment for an hour a day I'd definitely spin some kettle bells around.

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

I did actually answer your "what strength training has helped make people faster in aero position":


There is no magic exercise. You just need to increase leg strength, which will help performance (both aero and non aero). But as myself and others have alluded to, it's really cherry on the cake stuff, simply riding in aero position is likely much better bang for your buck. Especially for iroman where it's generally just holding a moderate power for a long time, we are not talking track cycling or road racing where you need big surges of power.

There are plenty of studies on weight training interventions for cyclists. I'm sure you can put your degree to some use and read them. If it improves efficiency in cycling it will crossover to cycling in the aero position. Muscle fibres are just not that complicated, even changing hip angle somewhat in an aero position is not changing quadriceps length to the point the movement is significantly different. There is a reason why the top road cyclists are still pretty good in aero position!


And the Norwegians say strength training is generally a waste of time and they only do it as part of rehab. It's more efficient to spend time doing endurance training. Not saying they are right, but you can probably find any n=1 pro triathlete to support a certain training approach.

I have seen people improve their aero riding considerably with strength training but they all had problems to be fixed - i.e. more core strength to hold position, one had a very large imbalance between legs. For someone that can hold aero relatively easily and has no underlying problems you are not going to see similar gains.

You’re wanting a discussion that isn’t there to have. Very few studies can point towards improving cycling through strength training and much less can you extrapolate them to the bike leg of a long course triathlon. Putting more power into the pedals while in aero is only one factor. How efficient are you? How aero are you? How fit are you for the swim?
Flexibility through the hips can help. A strong core can help. Mobility through your thoracic spine can help. Laidlow and his father have made the rounds on several pods talking about his training. It makes sense. Get efficient at the power you want to hit and hold. Father Laidlow talked about recruiting more fibers through big gear and stomps. Plyos can also be used for that. If you think about recruiting more muscle fibers while lifting, you will have to go heavy, which can affect the quality of the rest of your training. And few can point to that as the factor that improves their cycling over the bike portion of a IM. Specificity is always king and lifting is supplemental. As for Kanute 🤦🏻‍♂️

I have read a fair few studies on strength training for cycling (and running), and those I have read pretty much conclude that if you lift nice and heavy a few times a week, you’ll get better at pedaling, as long as you don’t lift so much it compromises your ability to run and ride. However, I have not read or found many studies about using strength training as a tool to adapt to an extreme position such as what I had imagined the Huub Wattbike team (and others) to have done. My mental picture of what they did was optimizing for aero first and then working on the pedaling side next via a combination of strength training (the word they used was physio, as I understood it?) AND training on the bike. I’m realizing that’s perhaps a bad assumption.

I didn’t mention my degree to brag about a college education from a decade ago that’s only partially relevant now anyway, just to set a bit of context for my experience level in the discussion. I’m not totally ignorant, nor am I stupid or inexperienced in the generalities of training at a high level. I didn’t really think this question was so idiotic as to be comoletely dismissed. I also thought it would be a fun discussion, but I now know better across the board.

When I was serious about competing and especially riding in TT position, strength and mobility were key parts of routine. Regular winter gym sessions and then a heavy dose of low cadence, high torque, moderate powder bike workouts (hour of power). On top of that, regular core and mobility maintenance to improve ability to hold an aggressive position for intense or long efforts. Personally I found it well worth the time investment.

But aero is not really an "extreme" position. The leg muscles are working at pretty similar lengths to regular cycling. Which is why if you get any good road cyclist with decent flexibility who's never ridden on a TT bike before the vast majority will be able to put out good steady state power numbers in an aero position. Of course they will struggle to hold the position for a long time, but unless there is some specific weakness holding them back, simply riding more in aero position is probably the best solution.

Flip the question and imagine a track cyclist asking what strength training would best improve their ability to ride on the hoods. Sure they could perhaps find something that might help, but there's lots more simple ways (e.g. just ride more on the hoods!).

Do you have a large discrepancy between your power riding in and out of the aero position? Why do you think strength training must be the solution?

This is the crux of the issue. Huub may have used a combination of 'physio' and cycling, but that could have been 5 min of stretches once a week in addition to their cycling. IIRC, a lot of those studies don't control for overall volume and use recreational athletes.

Huub was also focused on the pursuit, a 4min effort at 500w on a velodrome. Aside from a similar riding position that's as different as you can get from an Ironman.

You're looking for a discussion on something nobody has done because there's little reason to believe it's an effective use of time. It's like asking for a discussion on the merits of swapping apple juice for orange juice. Sure, it may benefit your performance, but it's too specific and doesn't have a viable enough performance benefit. It's not idiotic to dismiss the question. If anything it's idiotic to ignore a dozen people telling you it's a waste of time and obstinately press forward with the plan instead.

In the 4000m pursuit which is a 240 second event, you have rougly 20 second that is from anaerobic contribution. If you do the math then that is 20/240, or 1/12 which is 8.25% of the time is from anaerobic contribution, and what you are able to do in that final 20 seconds may be the difference between gold and 4th place. So if the training is for a 4000m pursuit, the strength training will work the fast twitch contributors to the performance and IS going to be instrumental in the final performance. It's not an even 500W effort. It is more like a massive crank toque fast twitch 5 second effort to get rolling the gigantic gear and then 15 seconds at 2-3x the steady state effort

In an Ironman, this 20 second of fast twitch contribution over a 10 hrs race, which is 36,000 seconds or 20/36000 which is 1/1800th of the race = 0.056% is meaningless rounding error on a rounding error on a rounding error.