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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [trail] [ In reply to ]
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For me there has never been any value in premium. I have done the premium trials and found I didn't use the extra features. All I really do on Strava is check out what friends have been up to and give a few kudos.
For analysis, I have been using FinalSurge for some time now. It is free and gives me all of the data I need.
Segments are interesting and I check them out from time to time but most of the koms around here were set during cyclonic winds and/or bunch rides. I can't get anywhere near the top so I won't really miss that functionality.
Noe that I can't even compare a segment time with a friend's time I think I will just remove my account. I don't see any reason to keep supplying Strava with data to get nothing in return.
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [carbenfire] [ In reply to ]
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For any social network, the value is in scale....and that's really hard to build if you are limited to just paying subscribers (which is why every social network has a fairly robust free offering, and might have a premium offering that appeals to a small number of users). Strava has the leadership position, and other offerings are either too niche or only really work for a particular device (Garmin) or type of user (cyclist).

Ideally they could get enough revenue through ads/sponsorships, but it doesn't look like they are even close (tough when a senior dev in SOMA costs $300+/yr). They have always been primarily and acquisition play, but the VCs may not be interested in continued investment toward that outcome.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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exxxviii wrote:
hadukla wrote:
I think I saw Garmin had some segment ability with their app, not that I paid much attention to it but can anyone tell me what would stop TrainingPeaks from adding a segment capability to their app?
Garmin still has segments. The key to success is a broad user base who both create and ride segments. There is probably not much stopping anyone with GPS activity data from creating segments in their, but the value is driven by an active user base.

I agree with you. I pay for Strava because I like the extra features. But if this move causes ~1/3rd of people to quit strava, I won't be a paying member for much longer, because it will be way less fun.

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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Titanflexr wrote:
For any social network, the value is in scale....

So you think the value of the Harvard alumni network is based on scale? I would argue it is based primarily on exclusivity, scale is a secondary factor.

Likewise, in a network, the value of all nodes/edges is not equal, it is entirely possible a network analysis of strava shows that non-paying nodes are not nearly as valuable for what strava's business strategy is.

Strava is a directed network(I have much greater number of people who follow me, than I follow), which is very different from facebook (undirected network, all friendships are reciprocal).

I agree that scale is one aspect of how you can analyze a network. However, if you are familiar with formal network analysis, there are many factors other than "scale" that may be used to analyze networks.
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:


Being a data scientist and understanding how one might effectively and profitably monetize a data set are not the same thing...[/quote]
Actually, they are the same thing. You don't think they shovel money at data scientists for no reason, do you?
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
Titanflexr wrote:
For any social network, the value is in scale....


So you think the value of the Harvard alumni network is based on scale? I would argue it is based primarily on exclusivity, scale is a secondary factor.

Likewise, in a network, the value of all nodes/edges is not equal, it is entirely possible a network analysis of strava shows that non-paying nodes are not nearly as valuable for what strava's business strategy is.

Strava is a directed network(I have much greater number of people who follow me, than I follow), which is very different from facebook (undirected network, all friendships are reciprocal).

I agree that scale is one aspect of how you can analyze a network. However, if you are familiar with formal network analysis, there are many factors other than "scale" that may be used to analyze networks.

The Harvard Alumni Network is not a social network (an end user product). You apparently have missed the boat on this one, you're arguing one way. I can tell you that data and the packages around the data are very powerful, especially from a Sponsor standpoint.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [carbenfire] [ In reply to ]
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Strava's email to users, they titled it-"We're Betting on Our Athletes"

Quote:
Dear Strava community,
If nothing else, 2020 has been a year of regaining perspective. A silver lining of hard times like these is that they inspire introspection and focus – What matters the most to us? And how do we live up to that?

Our answers to those questions have only gotten clearer in the past few months, and we’re now leading the company with a single purpose: rededicating Strava to our community.

We’re obsessing over our athletes – over you – and no one else.

Strava athletes deserve an affordable and constantly improving experience, and we hope you’ve noticed how focused we’ve been this year on delivering that. Our small but mighty team of 180 has released 51 athlete-facing improvements already in 2020, from Apple Watch syncing, to new maps and metrics for snowsports, to a huge update to our Routes features, and a lot more. We’ve also removed some distractions, such as Sponsored Integrations (the closest we’ve ever come to putting ads in the feed). And we returned the option to sort your feed in chronological order. We heard how much that change drove you nuts, and admit it took a really long time to respond.

Dedicating Strava to the community is also a commitment to longevity. We are not yet a profitable company and need to become one in order to serve you better. And we have to go about it the right way – honest, transparent and respectful to our athletes.

Our Plan Puts Subscription At the Center of Strava.

This means that, starting today, a few of our free features that are especially complex and expensive to maintain, like segment leaderboards, will become subscription features. And from now on, more of our new feature development will be for subscribers – we’ll invest the most in the athletes who have invested in us. We’ve also made subscription more straightforward by removing packs and the brand of Summit. You can now use Strava for free or subscribe, simple.

This focus on subscription ensures that Strava can serve athletes decades from now, and in an up-front way that honors the support of the athletes we serve today. We plan to take what we earn from these changes and reinvest straight back into building more and better features – not devising ways to fill up your feed with ads or sell your personal information. We simply want to make a product so good that you’re happy to pay for it.

A monthly subscription costs as much as a couple energy bars, and we think that’s money well spent. But we also know, especially lately, that there are athletes struggling to make ends meet and that the free version of Strava must remain high quality and useful. Rest assured that we will always offer a version of Strava for free, and you belong in this community whether you subscribe or not. We’re betting all our chips on you, either way. We hope you’ll bet on us.

We are beyond grateful for your business and your support, and thrilled to recommit ourselves entirely to you, our fellow athletes.

See you out there,
Michael and Mark

Their "athletes" aka comsumers, aren't betting on them though.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [carbenfire] [ In reply to ]
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I just updated my workouts in the Big Kahuna Challenge and it didn't look like it moved. Will our workouts still transfer over to Slowtwitch from Strava?

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [carbenfire] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t mind paying since it is the only social media crap I do. I do like the age group look ups and a few other things. It probably helps motivate friends you ride with when you recognize their riding or help get them out the door (now that we can ride outside) when they need a kick.

Besides, I just cancelled cable as they priced themselves out of my tolerances, especially with no live sports. Why would you raise rates for cable when you don’t have live sports?

I don’t think it cost too much to join Strava and there are other ways to cut cost if I need to. I can stop going out to eat, (oh wait that happened already) or taking fun trips (oh crap again). Maybe the Strava guys figured its all old guy losers like me have going so we will pay up?

RIDE ON KUDOS to all! Now back to the plague.

Rob
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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realbdeal wrote:
That seems like an unreal bad decision. Pretty much the only reason I, and many other people I know, use strava is for segments. No one who pays for trainingpeaks or a coach is going to pay for TP in addition to Strava. And then this kills the fun for a lot of people in my local cycling club for instance, who have been doing a Segment of the Week challenge. Sure, one person who pays can still see everything but it's way less fun to not immediately see your results and where you stack up. They've probably done the math and know that 10% more paying customers easily offsets 30% of their free customer base never using it again or something like that, but really disappointing to see.

free customers aren't customers. That answers all of your questions about this. I don't know why its even confusing to anyone or controversial. They are the only shop in town for what they specialize in, no one else is even close. So yes, they are going to sell that specialty and they could charge a lot more if they wanted to.

Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [Chemist] [ In reply to ]
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Chemist wrote:
At $5 a month it's pretty damn cheap compared to everything else in our sport - not much more than the monthly subscription to slowtwitch.

There are plenty of Strava users who patch tubes 2-3 times to save money...not necessarily because they can't afford a new one, but in principle. Just ask them how many miles their well worn tires have on their Enves.

"Most of my heroes don't appear on no stamps"
Blog = http://extrememomentum.com|Photos = http://wheelgoodphotos.com
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [allenpg] [ In reply to ]
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not a direct reply....
in regards to not showing full leaderboards to free accounts, they are really shooting themselves in the foot here. i always felt the "hook" to get a casual user engaged was getting those competitive juices flowing, whether it was against PR's, friends, local pro's , the best in the world etc. Now new users won't get that experience, and if they don't, what sets strava apart from other fitness trackers or routing apps etc? other big downside, by not being able to see leaderboards you are really limited when viewing other peoples' activities (stalking basically) or finding new people to follow. i can think of plenty of people i follow that i don't know personally, but they ride nearby and they ride inspiring routes, or trails i didn't even know were ridable. i don't know how i would find these people without perusing through leaderboards and looking through rides etc.
Last edited by: jflan: May 18, 20 20:35
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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How could it take 180 people to run Strava? (Especially since small changes and updates seem to take so long) It seems like they got too excited and built a little empire they can't afford.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
Titanflexr wrote:
For any social network, the value is in scale....


So you think the value of the Harvard alumni network is based on scale? I would argue it is based primarily on exclusivity, scale is a secondary factor.

Likewise, in a network, the value of all nodes/edges is not equal, it is entirely possible a network analysis of strava shows that non-paying nodes are not nearly as valuable for what strava's business strategy is.

Strava is a directed network(I have much greater number of people who follow me, than I follow), which is very different from facebook (undirected network, all friendships are reciprocal).

I agree that scale is one aspect of how you can analyze a network. However, if you are familiar with formal network analysis, there are many factors other than "scale" that may be used to analyze networks.

I was referring to online social networking companies (FB, LinkedIn, etc.). The Harvard alumni network is a totally different beast. They get some of their value extraction upfront (tuition) and a lot in arrears from rich donors (which they are really good at).

IIRC, facebook started as a service exclusive to Harvard students....then included other elite colleges.....then any college.....then anyone with a school email......then everyone. There was no way they were going to be worth billions just catering to Harvard alum, so they needed to scale to make their data/ad network profitable.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [jflan] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. The leaderboards are the only thing that interest me about Strava. I have all other info for free in other ways.

I am assuming fewer people will now use the app since many (myself included) can't see paying for an app that isn't really a training or coaching app, and isn't a social media (all of which are free anyway). As users decline, the app will be increasingly less interesting to people (since the only thing people really cared about is the leaderboards). As fewer people use the app, it will become a downward cycle or people losing interest.

I sort of wish them well, but I also think they have misread their value. I will miss it (but not enough to pay).
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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I agree also. I give kudos and occasionally leave a comment or two for the people that I follow, but the only things that are important for me are the KOMs, Top 10s, and my PRs. Now that I am getting to the age that grabbing those KOMs or Top 10s is getting harder and harder, I have less and less of a reason to pay for the subscription because I don't use any of those things a subscription pays for. If they want me to pay for it, and let's be honest it doesn't really cost that much, then they are going to have to include something that is useful to me, which is something that I yet don't know I want.

The more people I encounter the more I love my cats.
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
How could it take 180 people to run Strava? (Especially since small changes and updates seem to take so long) It seems like they got too excited and built a little empire they can't afford.

I'm with you and don't understand the how economics of Strava. It seems like they have a structural problem with there business that needs to be addressed before trying to re-invent the subscription game again and again. With 180 employees I can only guess most of those employees are helping with 3rd party developers and then this is where I would be looking to cash in. I have collect data on devices from Lenzye, Garmin and Tacx/Zwift and all these companies have leveraged Strava rather than sort out functional software. By charging the companies for whom you are developing the software it becomes much easier to work out market pricing and employee load. In effect you hire the number of people you have work to support.

If this not the work most of the 180 employees are doing then lord knows what they are doing. I had a quick google of Training Peaks and from what I see they are between 11-50 employee. I realize they have membership numbers on a different scale but I can't see why Strava is doing that requires so many people that Training Peaks isn't unless its working directly with the 3rd party app companies.
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
How could it take 180 people to run Strava? (Especially since small changes and updates seem to take so long) It seems like they got too excited and built a little empire they can't afford.

Interesting point. As a follow up question how can not one of those 180 people have ever said ... hey how can we run this company if we never charge or run ads? I'm being a bit of a smartass but also how can not one of those folks be public relations or business strategy? In this announcement they basically said ... hello competitors and third-party folks you have 60 days to develop a product to replace us. I find the whole thing wildly entertaining.
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [Chemist] [ In reply to ]
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Chemist wrote:
** snipped ** A boat load of free users ** snipped **

I think there's a mistunderstanding that if you're not paying it's for free.

As a user, we give them a huge amount of valuable information which is sold to many companies in the industry. We might not be paying with currency but we are paying, just with another commodity.

I'm with you, though, I'm not really bothered. I don't really look at segments or anything. I stopped my Summit membership because these days I use Golden Cheetah. It does everything any of the other platforms do.
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [carbenfire] [ In reply to ]
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On the one hand, I understand that Strava has to make money, and can see how they came to a decision to finally try to extract some revenue out of their most popular feature (Segments). On the other hand, the value of Segments is proportional to the number of users. If this decision drives away casual (free) users in large numbers, the value proposition of the feature for remaining subscribers is diminished. It's the "Strava Dilema." Other platforms have their equivalents to Segments, but Strava has owned the public mindshare due to their density of participants. Strava knows taking Segments data behind a paywall is risky; It's why they've spent the last 4-5 years trying, mostly unsuccessfully, to build a premium membership feature set without touching Segments. Desperation has brought them to this point.

I'm not mad; I don't think Strava owes me anything*. But when I look at all the proposed changes, it pushes me one step closer to making a decision of whether to subscribe or to quit using it all together. If I leave, it won't be an emotional decision. Rationally, I see that most of what Strava wants me to start paying for for, other than Segment comparisons to other riders, I can get without a subscription from Garmin Connect. Right now, Strava is where I go after a ride to see my stats and maybe dig into the data a little. While I'm there, I'll take a glance at the feed and throw a few Kudos to friends. With these changes, my first, and maybe only, stop will be to Garmin Connect. The primary value of Segments for me has morphed from "comparing myself to others" to "comparing my most recent performance to previous performances." I can replicate my favorite segments on GC, and continue to do that. While I occasionally like to see where I rank, and where I stand versus a handful of friends, I'm personally not inclined to pay Strava $60 a year to continue seeing it.

Strava is walking a bit of a tightrope, here. I think they're banking largely on apathy; that, in the end, no matter how much people bitch, few will actually quit. It's probably a good bet. But if they're wrong, and people start bailing out, the exodus starts to feed on itself. It's going to be an interesting few months to watch.


*If they do put the workout log behind the paywall, I feel they should allow users a reasonable opportunity to port their history elsewhere without cost. I have used Strava as my "master fitness log" for the last ~3 years and have a lot of manually entered swims and treadmill runs there and nowhere else.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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cloy wrote:
Cue the free alternative to Strava in 3..2..1..

So are there any other players at the table? Does Garmin count?
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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cloy wrote:
Cue the free alternative to Strava in 3..2..1..

Easier said than done.
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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Same here.....
And Strava has still never addressed other sports in its segments...Not sure where the value will lie.

Anyone use the live tracking feature on Strava; that seems to be included when you pay.

Stephen J

I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [ In reply to ]
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Kinda like Zwift, you don't have to use it. I use Strava because SportsTracks refuses to sync with Zwift (I've asked SportsTracks and get some run around that Zwift won't let them) thats fine for the same yearly price I'll stay with Strava and won't renew SportsTracks (it is a good program, no complaints). I really don't care about the "hey look at my workout" aspect of Strava no do I care what Joe Blow did on his training ride or run. Strava app is convenient, SportTracks doesn't have an app.
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Re: Strava Segments now Paywalled [scott8888] [ In reply to ]
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And not only that, most of those are getting paid San Francisco salaries in a huge San Francisco office that must cost a bloody fortune. Plus a second office in Denver. They're acting like they're Facebook before they've shown any evidence that they actually can scale big enough to support that kind of employee base or without understanding what business model will get them that kind of profitability. It won't take them long to blow through their $40 million in vc money like that.


scott8888 wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
How could it take 180 people to run Strava? (Especially since small changes and updates seem to take so long) It seems like they got too excited and built a little empire they can't afford.

I'm with you and don't understand the how economics of Strava. It seems like they have a structural problem with there business that needs to be addressed before trying to re-invent the subscription game again and again. With 180 employees I can only guess most of those employees are helping with 3rd party developers and then this is where I would be looking to cash in. I have collect data on devices from Lenzye, Garmin and Tacx/Zwift and all these companies have leveraged Strava rather than sort out functional software. By charging the companies for whom you are developing the software it becomes much easier to work out market pricing and employee load. In effect you hire the number of people you have work to support.

If this not the work most of the 180 employees are doing then lord knows what they are doing. I had a quick google of Training Peaks and from what I see they are between 11-50 employee. I realize they have membership numbers on a different scale but I can't see why Strava is doing that requires so many people that Training Peaks isn't unless its working directly with the 3rd party app companies.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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