I love the ride of steel, that's why I'm upgrading the grouppo on my mid 80's Miele this winter. It still rides nicer than my aluminium bikes. Plus I love the classic looks of the lugs.

I may retire from tri but I'll cycle until I'm too frail. Eventually I want to get my dream bike - something like a custom built Richard Sachs steel.

Steel is still the standard by which other bikes are judged. I had to chuckle when recently reading an ad from a high end titanium frame maker who wrote that their bikes "ride like steel".

There are some good steel frames to be had but do consider the Cervelo Super Prodigy. One heck of a good $$ deal and rides soooo smoooooth.

http://www.cervelo.com/bikes/SPG.html

I have a steel bike, and I love it. I'm 5'8", ~160. If you are as big as you are tall, you might find steel to be a little too flexy for you. I have a friend who is around 6'2", 210, and all muscle, and he needs Ti to get enough stiffness to put the power to the pavement.

Overall, though, I still love steel the best. Give me $5,000 and I might make a convincing argument for Titanium.

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> I have a friend who is around 6'2", 210, and all muscle,
> and he needs Ti to get enough stiffness to put the power
> to the pavement.

What he really needs is a competent builder ... ;)

Dre'

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...

well, " make me a better cyclist" sounds a little over the top.

but, by all means go get yerself a nice new school steel road bike. it is a golden age for steel bikes, with insanely sweet beautiful looking and riding bikes to be had from any number of builders of impeccable pedigree for LESS than the masses are paying for taiwanese made bikes of inexpensive aluminum glued to chinese laid CF rear triangles.

utter madness.

what are you looking at, or looking for?

Steel is the deal! I ride a steel Holland (TIG-welded oversized Tange Prestige) that I got in 1992. I had it stripped down for a repair about 2 years ago. We weighed the frame at 3.1 pounds -- lighter than almost any production titanium frame in my size. Stiff enough for me, but with that twangy springiness only a steel bike has.

As for the post about big guys having a problem with stiffness -- jeez, sounds like the guy needs a different frame, but it's not because it's steel. A friend of mine (a Commander in the Navy) is 6'2" and about 240 lbs and powerful as a rhino. He rides the same bike I do from the same builder. The only difference is that his bike has a larger diameter downtube.

I love my steel frame, but let's face it -- it's only a frame. The components and wheels and saddle that we choose have just as much (or more) to do with how the bike rides.

"...he needs Ti to get enough stiffness to put the power to the pavement. "

Steel's modulus of elasticity is about double that of titanium. Therefore titanium is about twice as flexible as steel given two identically shaped tubes. Titanium has a lot of good qualities, but stiffness isn't one of them. I'm afraid somebody made a sucker out of your friend.

Steel is cool, but the cost really isn't cheaper than aluminum, and aluminum gives you less weight and better stiffness. Steel theoretically lasts longer, but in practice aluminum can last almost forever given the right tubeset and the right builder. I've got around 6 steel bikes and 5 aluminum. Both work great, but I always reach for the aluminum bikes on race day.

Downtube shifters shift crisply, they are light, and you don't have to worry about the indexing ring wearing out since you're always got the friction option. But STI/Ergo is so much nicer in the rolling hills where you have to shift a lot. Not to mention the quick shifting needed in a crit, road race, etc.

Steel kicks ass. I love it. My future tri bike may not be steel (want a Titan-Flex), but my future track & roadie will. I converted my old lugged Benotto into a fixie and swear it's still the sweetest ride I've ever owned. Find yourself a good builder who knows what tubeset, construction tehniques, and geometry will work best for you. Then drop a healthy chunk of change down for a sweet-ass frame, build it with the best you can afford (Campy Chorus is the worldbeater wrt bang-for-buck in my opinion), and have your wheels hand-built by a master. Get your fit dialed in, and rock your own world!

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Mmmmmmmm....Yamaguchi...custom built and only $1,380.00!







This Aero frame was developed for people looking for the aerodynamic advantage in frames.
Yamaguchi designed custom-made True-Temper airfoil shaped Heat-Treated Tube set is meticulously
fillet-brazed at a carefully controlled temperature with nickel silver for maximum strength.
Its airfoil tubes include the down tube, front fork and seat stays.
The top tube is oversized, and the chain stays are light gauge.
These provide the best aerodynamic advantage of any steel frame on the market.
This lightweight frame makes for good acceleration and easy climbing.
Frame only weight (54cm)3.4lb

Aero Road/TimeTrial/Triathlon $1,380.00

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Well, the amazing thing about it is that this guy has an ME/EE degree, and he and I have had some pretty heated arguments about the mettle of the metals, and he still told me this. BTW, this was based on his experience, not a saleperson suckering him.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and think that he suckered himself because he wanted a Ti bike. What do you want from roadies? ;p

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DAMN I love those Yamaguchi frames.... I'd LOVE to rack one of these one day....

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

hey record10 this is the first time i have ever agreed with anything you said, buddy. that yamaguchi kicks ass, and that is no lie. anybody who walks past that for some taiwanese welded aluminum or chinese fibres in glue at the same price (more?) needs their head examined.

I have a steel 58 Paramount PDG, built by National/Panasonic with Tange OS, and I love it dearly. It has DT shifters, eventually I'm going to get barends, but the DT work fine for JRA. I wouldn't race with DT, though. Also have a alu Trek 2300 which feels distinctly stiffer than the steel - this is my race bike.

I like steel because I'm a retrogrouch.. Really I think the difference in ride has more to do with tires, saddle, and even bar tape, than it does the frame. That said, I believe I can feel a difference between the Trek and the Paramount when accelerating or climbing hard, but it might be in my mind: or in the difference between 1999 Ultegra and 1991 105..

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

You say that it might be in your mind, but I don't think that matters. You THINK the steel rides well. So what if there are differences in wheels and tires that change the ride on the bike, you like the steel ride with the down tube shifters. I think that's what's driving me to want a steel bike. I just THINK it would be fun to have.

I would certainily race on my new bike and I would probably do most of my training on the new bike, but I would want to have the steel one out there for those nice rides when I want to just go out for the pure love of being out. Of course once I start riding steel I might sell the new bike and commit myself to being a steel only kind of rider. It just seems nice.

Adam

so, what are you looking at there, adam? a steelman? an IF ? serotta? strong? holland? waterford? kirk? ? ? ? ?

I've got an ealy 90's Serotta made out of Tange Prestige. I love it. I rode it with DT shifters (8 speed) but this year I'm up-grading to 9 speed STI. Steel is great for long rides. I've used my Serotta for my tri-bike as well but it begs to ridden without the aero-bars.

[reply]so, what are you looking at there, adam? a steelman? an IF ? serotta? strong? holland? waterford? kirk? ? ? ? ?[/reply]

Tim,
I am looking to get a custom steel frame in the near future and would like your input on builders. I like strong or maybe soulcraft, I'm thinking of TIG welded frame in one of the newer steels. Any input on builders? Nothing crazy, I'm looking at ~1200 for the frame. Thanks

Andrew

 I have an old colnago that is still sweet, got a one speed Soulcraft on e-bay and bought it's twin from the boys in Petaluma. It is a really nice steel frame. I sort of lust for the Yamaguchi in yellow, another good one. On the cheaper end Rock Lobster is under a grand for the frame (no fork), and Curtlo in Wash State makes some nice rides for cheap. Steelman just went way up on his costs, and Tom Ritchey makes a good steel frame at around a grand. You might try local builders, some of them make sweet rides for cheaper too. G

You seem to be suggesting that becuase many products in the cycling industry are being manufactured overseas, that they are somehow inferior or less respectable. Have you ever seen a tiwaneese bike factory? They are are by no means sweat shops or 2nd rate operations.

btw, a hell of a lot more engineering and thought time goes into making a light, high end aluminum frame. You are purchasing the thought and time invested into designing a high end aluminum bike. Otherwise, cheap, straight guage aluminum and steel bikes are very compareably priced at your local walmart.

Please do not compare a good steel frame with something you find at Wallmart. Let me tell you a lot of thought goes into building a great steel frame. Ben i can not understand why you think more thought or enginnering goes into a aluminum frame??? A steel frame will have advanges over aluminum frame,like being able to replace a tube or a dropout,or adding water bottle braze-ons,with steel you can go tig welded or fillet brazed,or go with lugs,and the lugs can go from plain to works of art depending on what you want,with Aluminum break a tube or drop out and thats it,if you ever ride a good steel frame you will want one,i have three steel road frames and two Aluminum road frames,one steel mtb and two Aluminum mtbs,so i ride both materials,and i am 6 4 215lbs so i really give both materials a good test

I hope i didn't come across that way. I was comparing cheap steel with cheep aluminum, becuse the guy i was responding too reffered to aluminum as cheap. Aluminum is cheap, so is steal (you'll find both materials used on walmart bikes), its the engineering that goes into an aluminum frame, the hours of cad clicking, frustration, and designing that makes an aluminum frame expensive. It may only cost $1-200 in material cost to make a cannondale (just a theoretical estimate/guess, im not sure how much it cost) but it also took a design team and a lot of expensive computer work a long and strenuous time to figure out where to butt and shape those tubes, and all the test for stiffness, strength........I didn't mean to bash one material over the other, just to point out that aluminum is no cheaper than steel, and to explain why bikes cost what they do. .

I don't know much about steel frames in the sense that i have no idea what kind of engineering goes into one. Im sure cervelo spent a lot of time developing their prodigy, perhaps Gerard would give some insight into the difference in developing the tubing for a high end steel bike, and a high end aluminum bike?

Raced on different steel frames in the old days - changed to one of the better alu in 99. Also a nice frame - but I missed the steel feeling. But instead of buying a steel frame I got a carbon (italian C4 Magik) - and got the best of both: Compliance and comfort as the steel frame, with bb stiffnes as the alu frame.

Be very careful if you go for a steel frame - standard steel frames in large sizes are somtimes too soft and unstable in decents; select a good framebuilder.

Steel makes a mighty fine bike. There is no worry about the aging if you bake it for paint (within reason), tubes can be replaced, braze-ons can be added, and if properly cared for, it is a long-life bike.

I don't know if you'll become a better cyclist for riding one, unless you enjoy the ride that well and want to ride it, ride it, ride it!!!!

I will say this: a good frame builder makes the bike have the ride quality you're looking for, not the material. It takes hundred upon hundred of miles to differentiate between materials. Sometimes, I wonder if the reason why people lust after steel is that many experienced builders have built in steel the longest, and some people hearken back to the good ol' days with a bike that they loved dearly. I have been told by some of the few I know who own an aluminium Salbierre (or is it Sablierre- someone help me out) has said that's their lifetime bike. This builder was the g'dfather of aluminium, and many great pro cyclists (earlier than one would ever guess) had them repainted as their own steeds. I have never gotten to ride one :(. They are rare as can be.

That being said, I love my steel bikes, as over a few hundred miles, you can tell the difference. That could have to do with geometry and tubing selection.

Steel has come to a unique age. Good steel is not cheaper than aluminium, as 7000-series al is the one of the lightest and cheapest tubesets you can buy (as a builder). Aluminium is still going to be lighter than even the best steel frameset. You can have a steel frameset that can weigh upwards of five pounds, and that is just a frame!!! But, you can also get a steel frameset that weighs three pounds, which is in the neighbourhood of titanium. True Temper S3 can build a fifteen pound bike, provided you use the lightest fork and other components. 853 can build a light frame with great ride characteristics. 753 is something that is quite rare these days, and though a fine tubeset (as it won the TdF over a ten or so year time period), it is outdated according to many standards. True Temper still makes fine steel tubes, and aero to boot. Columbus and Deda make fine ones, and don't forget Tange.

What is my current road bike? I currently ride a GT Course 853, which is a fine bike. I got the thing N.O.S. for $200. I did not like the fork, as I know that lighter steel forks are available, so I chose a Look. The bloody thing had touring eyelets (with none on the frame, which was race geometry), and I could just see that their steel fork came from their low, low end line of bikes. I could be dead wrong about that. But I felt that the fork that came with that frameset was made to go in the mechanic's spare fork box. If I were to buy a Yamaguchi or Land Shark, I would get their steel fork, no matter the weight penalty.

Down tube shifters are the BOMB. I like them so much better than that finnicky STI crap. Get downtube shifters, for certain.

Who would I recommend? Mandaric, Yamaguchi, Land Shark, Steelman.

One last word of advice: make sure you do the following:

1) Clean the bike regularly and touch up any paint that has chipped. Use your wife/girlfriend's nail polish if need be.

2) Every time you clean the bike, grease the seat post.

3) Spray J.P. Weigle's Frame Saver in the tubes once or twice per year, more if you ride in a rainy climate.

<Does anyone else experience this? For me it's strange since I've never even ridden on a steel bike!>

Perfectly natural. How old did you say you are?

I spend the majority of my cycling time on a Peter Mooney semicustom road bike. It's a constant source of pleasure, visually and tactilely. For two weeks before each race, and during it, I ride a Kestrel KM40 Airfoil. I love it, too. Some might say two bicycles could hardly be more unalike. Yet they have the most important thing in common: They both fit me perfectly. (Kestrel=56cm; Mooney=~58cm; me=6'2", 175)

Differences? Well, the Kestrel's set up with cowhorns and aerobars, the Mooney with standard road bars, so I go faster on the Kestrel. Doh. The main difference, though, is that the Kestrel doesn't make a satisfying ting sound (Dedacciai 01) when the rear brake cable shield slaps against the top tube.

David

I'm waiting on my new steel tri bike. My suggestion is two fold. If you don't know the geometry you want, pretty much exactly, I would go to a seasoned TRI bike maker. Maybe its tradition, but most steel bike builders want to and are great at building road bikes. On the other hand, the deals to be had in steel are from smaller builders. I knew the exact geometry, tube lengths and angles that Iwanted, so I drafted it up and hired Jay and Jeremy Sycip in NorCal to build the frame for me. The price was excellent and I had seen some examples of hteir work that were amazing. Smaller companies tend to spend more time with you, and will work through the design process. They bigger builders I talked to, especially in tri bikes, already had their own opinions of what I should ride (like 76 degree angles), that I didn't agree with.

I almost went with Yamaguchi, and I would highly recommend them if you would rather the builder did the design, but I had problems translating my specific desires to Mr. Yamaguchi (via his wife). I also dislike the cable stops he uses (they don't allow for endcaps, which eventually frays the casing wires).

I did a lot of research, since I am not rich, and wanted to make sure that I was not screwing myself with my own design, and not getting screwed by someone else's ideas of how I should ride. My top two choices would be:

Sycip designs: www.sycip.com, and

Yamaguchi: www.yamaguchibike.com.

Good luck, steel will last a lifetime so any hard work you put into it will be repaid manyfold over many years,



eddie