Hey daniel,

You gotta be careful with things like this my friend...

There could be any number of reasons the tire seperated from the wheel- but you only mentioned the wheel- casting erroneous doubts (potentially) on the wheel.

I respectfully suggest that is not fair. What kind of tire? Was it installed correctly? was the rim overheated from braking? Was the bike carried on a car rack? Exposed to chemicals or exhaust?

We've had customers bring tires back as "defective" only to learn their trunk mount car rack positioned the sidewall of the tire right in front of their exhaust pipe. That's not a defect.

What are the other details? In any forensic investigation we first need ALL the pertinent info please.....

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

That sucks. I hope your friend is OK.

I've heard nothing about specific tire problems and the Tiliums, but I know Hed has had a warning out for some time about clinchers that have a bead that is a little loose for their wheels. The Vittoria you mentioned is one of the tires on the list. Here's the blurb from the Hed website...



Vredestein clinchers are not recommended on our wheels. We think their tire bead is too loose for our wheels, and if used at the manufacturers recommended max pressure, there is a fair chance they could blow off the rim after an extended period of braking.

For the same reason we do not recommend Vittoria Corsa clinchers. That particular model has a looser bead than Vittoria's other models and for that reason we cannot recommend their use on our wheels. As far as we know, the other Vittoria models are fine.

In general, if a tire mounts onto our wheels very easily, it should be used with caution. Mounting a clincher should take some effort. Not super-human strength, but if your five year old could change your tires then be careful.


I think the last paragraph is the most important.

Yeah, what Tom said. Find out more details before you go pointing fingers at the wheels (the tone of your post sounds accusatory). I just mounted up Hutchinson Carbon Comps on my new set of Tiliums.....going out for the first ride this afternoon.

Andy

"A friend of mine just crashed this morning because the tire came loose on his new spinergy tilium wheel. "

sounds like a fair statement to me...and since you neither work for a competitor or sell their product, i think it's a fair question to ask....you could be asking just as much about the wheel as you are the tire...

I hope you find an answer!

I'm not sure anyone was calling for a "forensic investigation." But if someone is, Spinergy can feel safe knowing that you are here to defend them, Tom, because you always make sure that you have "all the facts" before you conduct trial by internet. What was it that you wrote on your website about FSA cranks a while back? Dangerous? Prone to fail? Shouldn't be on the market?

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________________________________________________

Anyone who tells you they're as fast now as they were when they were 18...
sure wasn't very fast when they were 18.

I recommend you check your facts Rich. It was not written about FSA cranks. It was written about carbon cranks based on an observation we made of a crank that I saw fail. One of three. We did not divulge the specific brand but issued an opinion that we (I) did not like carbon cranks and considered them dangerous at that time as a result of those observations.

It is further worth mentioning we have published additional information on our website to the effect that carbon cranks have subsequently evolved to the degree that we feel safety is no longer an issue (in our crank test).

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Additionally, I have never claimed to have "all the facts" but I do clarify that I have my opinions.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your reply. I did NOT intend to blame anyone. I just stopped by the bike shop where he is working and saw him, the wheel, and the tire. The tire was brand new and it clearly must have come off because the rim is all damaged now. I cannot 100% state that the tire was put on correctly. Yes, I trust his skills but I wasn't there when he did it. Therefore I'm "only" 99.999% sure that mechanical errors where not the cause.

Just to mention it again. I DID NOT intend to blame the manufacturer. I simply heard of tires that should not be used with certain wheels. Ok, guess I should have asked differently then.

Is anyone aware of certain tires that should not be used with the spinergy tilium 700cc wheel.



thanks. I have to go ride now!



daniel

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�The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.� -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.

Pooks -- GET TO WORK!!

Ok, back to reality. Are you racing this weekend? Turns out my game was postponed till Sunday so i'll be out at the TCSD aid station - at least that's the plan for right now.

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TheBikeRacer.com

OKey doke. No worries. As usual, I am the one taking the heat anyway. No biggy.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

When you present your "opinions" as being based on the results of supposedly scientific tests, you can call them whatever you want but you knew (and intended) that a lot of people were going to take them as fact. I'm sorry I mentioned FSA's name in connection with your crank test. My point was not that there is anything wrong with their cranks. Quite the contrary, I was suggesting that their cranks are fine and there was something wrong with your test (and with you accusing someone else of conducting trial by internet).

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________________________________________________

Anyone who tells you they're as fast now as they were when they were 18...
sure wasn't very fast when they were 18.

What test? What is wrong with it?

We did not test carbon cranks to determine their durability.

I don't mean to come off as offensive or confrontational- but I am interested in interpretations of our website content other than what was intended- so your insights are valuable and important to me.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I'm not trying to be confrontational either and this is not worth arguing about but this is what I know. You have (commendably) pulled the review we're talking about from your website so I'm going from memory (which is dangerous with a memory like mine) but I am pretty sure that you (1) said that you had seen several carbon cranks that had failed (2) said that you examined the broken cranks to try to figure out why they failed (3) examined (and explained in your review) how carbon cranks are made and how that process relates to what you believed the cause of the failure to be and (4) offered an opinion that carbon cranks are prone to failure and therefore dangerous.

If my recollection is wrong, I apologize. If I remember right and you intended to do something other than steer people away from buying carbon cranks, I think you understand now (if for no other reason than the backlash your review created) why a lot of people took it that way and I know that you are more careful about your reviews now.

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________________________________________________

Anyone who tells you they're as fast now as they were when they were 18...
sure wasn't very fast when they were 18.

Here's the review - from the 2003 Felt S-22 write up.



When S22's arrive we will recommend changing the cranks. We don't like the FSA carbon crank the bike is supplied with and consider it dangerous. These carbon cranks are not designed and manufactured by Shimano to work with a Shimano drivetrain and we have seen (different brands, not FSA) of carbon cranks fail recently. Since the risk outweighs any possible benefit we recommend replacing the FSA (or any brand) carbon crank on the S22 with a Shimano 105, Ultegra or Dura-Ace crank. There will be an up-charge, but it is worth it. Other than that, the bike is a 100% home run- at least on paper. In general, we do not have confidence in carbon fiber cranks. You have to ask yourself, other than fashion or cool factor- what is the true benefit of a carbon fiber crank over aluminum? Do any benefits outweigh any potential issues? These are questions only you can answer. No Bikesport employees ride carbon cranks.

Doug Stuart, President of FSA who distributes the cranks used on the S22, felt our opinion of carbon cranks was "neither accurate nor justified". In an e-mail to us, he expressed the following facts:

• We (FSA) are licensed by Shimano to make Octalink compatible cranksets.
• We manufacture cranks that offer shifting compatibility with Shimano 9 speed and Campagnolo 10 speed.
• We have suffered no crankarm breakages that we know of in the past 3 years.
• FSA Carbon Pro cranksets are both stronger and stiffer than Dura-Ace or Record. These results were gathered through laboratory testing. Also, anecdotally, we receive many comments from consumers who notice increased perceived stiffness in the cranks.
  

I was impressed that Doug Stuart took the time to read our review and respond with the above information. It is certainly worth considering when evaluating these cranks. Admittedly, our stance on equipment in general is conservative and errs toward safety.

I am confused - what did Tom do?

There was a valid point raised about the there being a possibility of the clincher bead not being tight enough on the tire in question. I saw a similar occurence with Hutchinson Excel clinchers on my wifes bike last year. Fortunately she experienced a blowout on flat, level ground at low speed because the tire bead came out of the rim (Velomax Circuits) - I shudder to think what might have happened had she had the flat while descending through a corner at high speeds. Did we cruicify the makers of the wheel, no - we stopped using the tire and switched to Hutchinson Carbon Comps for all of our wheelsets. Incidently, it was suggested by a very experienced mechanic that the type of rim strip used can also also have an impact on the fit of the clincher bead with some tires.



Michael

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well, here's my version of what I did:

Going back several model years ago- and I don't specifically recall how long it was so please allow me some leeway here owing to memory- I did a PREview of the new bike that featured carbon fiber cranks as part of its parts spec.

Earlier that season I was at the Walden School of Cycling with my associate, the late Michael R. Rabe. At the school part of the curriculum was time trial starts. During theat session of the school a cyclist broke a carbon fiber crank and narrowly avoided a crash as a result.

Following that, we discovered cracks in several other carbon cranks and had two other cranks fail in a similar manner to the ones at the Walden School. It is worth mentioning that during the prior 10 year period we had seen one aluminum crank break in the same manner as the (now) total of five or six carbon fiber ones.

As a result of this I made specific comments (repreinted directly in a post above) casting what I hoped were serious doubts on the safety of carbon fiber cranks at the time.

Bottom line: I was afraid to recommend carbon cranks based on my observations.

My comments drew (and continue to draw) some controversy and well-deserved critiscism. I didn't waffle, I didn't sit on the fence. I offered a powerful, polarized opinion based on my experience.

Since then, carbon fiber cranks have changed significantly from the ones we saw fail. I have ridden them in the more modern version and had good results with zero failures.

The cranks in question were a product we sold, on a bike line we carried. At the time I wrote it, and to this day, I felt what I wrote was responsible.

While my comments may have cast substantial negative publicity on a broad category of products I did not test (i.e. all carbon cranks at the time) I felt they were justified since the equivalent failures had not been observed with aluminum cranks.

I took some heat for my comments- and that is fair and just. I would not hesitate for one second to offer just as strong an opinion in a similar circumstance today based on similar events. To me it was a safety issue.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

(used the "quote" but for some reason it didn't take the additional text I've written. that's the reason I deleted my previous "quote" post)

thanks. I knew I read something like that earlier this week but couldn't remember where.

could it be that the vittoria corsa clincher is also incompatible with the spinergy tilium wheel?

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�The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.� -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.

I have used these wheels for months, they are bomb proof, but I use Michelin Axial Pro's, so I cannot comment on Vittoria Tires

BUT

On my set of Xaero's the Vittoria's I did have did start to seperate at the tread bead a bit, before I trashed them and went with Michelin

I stand by the Tiliums as being one of my all time favorite wheels, they are an excellent value in my opinion and a great race/training wheel



Gary

"could it be that the vittoria corsa clincher is also incompatible with the spinergy tilium wheel? "

I don't know and I wouldn't feel comfortable speculating on that. However I would ask if your friend found it really easy to mount the tire to the wheel. If so then I would be weary of any such tire. I know I find significant differences in how ~easy~ it is to mount different tires on the same wheel.

Our team has used Tilium wheels this season without any problems, although they are run with Schwalbe tires (another sponsor).

I know from personal experience that I have seen Vittoria Corsa clinchers blow off the rim on a descent (Mavic Ksyrium), I used to use Vredestein clinchers, once when the bike shop inflated them to 120 (I usually run about 100) the front blew straight off the rim (Mavic Open Pro).

I would suggest that the most likely culprit is the tire, if it is too loose on the rim, or the bead is faulty it can suddenly fail, with catastrophic results. As with previous posts, if the tire goes too easily on the rim it will come too easily off the rim.

I just got home from the Ralphs expo. I wasnt in the office today except for a couple minutes this morning. First and foremost I hope your friend is O.K. Secondly I am very concerned one because it was one of our wheels and two because I am running Vittoria Cx's on my wheels right now. I have a tight 4 corner crit planned for Sunday. That being said. I ran the Vittorias on my Tiliums for quite a while last season. I went into some corners pretty hard and never had an issue. Please have your friend or the shop contact our tech guy Emilio(I will be at the Ralphs expo again all day tommorow).

I have recently purchaised Tiliums, and was thinking of putting some Michelin Pro Race tires (size 23) on the Tiliums. I'm wondering if anyone else has had problems with specific types of tires on the Tiliums. Also, I'm curious if the width of the tire used on the Tilium could be an issue?

No, i use that combo with no issues and i'm an 86kg bike gorilla. Make sure you use high quality rim tape though....

My Tillium SS wheels came with Rim tape in the box, are you suggesting that I use other rim tape?

So far the wheels are great though I did have a weird blowout on the 2d ride which even caused the tire to come off the rim.