[reply]Fraid I don't like it for the reason Shanberg said. I thought IMUK had a great system (8m wait in T2 for two offences, They remove your T2 bag from the hook if you do it three times - game over). You weren't told on the bike when you were getting busted (although if you knew you were cheating and a guy rode past on a scooter peering at your number then I guess you could presume).[/reply]

The problem with this system in my opinion, is that the person still has benefit of the draft for the rest of the race. The "upside" of the stand down is that the pack goes up the road, and the caught on is not on.

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

the real solution is

1. much smaller fields
2. real enforcement of the rules after reducing the size of the fields

[reply]the real solution is

1. much smaller fields
2. real enforcement of the rules after reducing the size of the fields[/reply]

Yes, that's a start. The problem with that is the entry fees would escalate accordingly, and the time to fill up a race would be even more ridiculous. Maybe have to do a qualifier? I don't like that solution, but it might work. That said, WTC loves what's going on as far as the cash flow, so doubt they'd institute any of these.

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

more races.

[reply]more races.[/reply]

That would be great, but still can't see them taking a hit in the wallet. Sure would be nice to have more choices for racing.

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

Option 4. Make drafting LEGAL.

but we know the purists wont allow that and any other idea that involves money is just going to raise the entry fee's.

A cheaper alternative would be to have drafting lookout stations spread throughout the course ( maybe between each aid station) armed with radios who are in contact with the mobile draft marshals. Say at draft station "20 mile mark" they observe a peloton go by, well they just radio to the marshall on the bike who would be a couple of miles ahead who by the way could be hiding in the bushes like motor cops do and as they pass by he gets on their tail, observes and cites the whole group.

Just a thought.

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I have horrible back problems but I have zero problems staying in an aero position for 180k. Why? Because I ride steep and because I train regularly in that position. Simple as that.....Gerard

I was nervous as hell about getting nailed at both of my IM's. (at Lake Placid) I was conscious every mintue of trying to make sure I stayed within the rules. You end up with a group of folks around you - so you accelerate to try and stay ahead. Then they pass you back, you're counting bike lengths while softpedaling to make sure you are out of the zone, then two more come up on you and put you in their zone, etc. It's nuts. You end up just going backwards through the field for minutes at a time and losing alls sorts of speed to try and protect yourself.


This doesn't sound like much fun and yet the non-"name-brand" iron-distance races around the country barely have a few hundred people sign up. I just read in another thread that Duke's iron-distance race is no more and I would be surprised if the California-man or full Vineman last much longer out West. WTC-mania is apparently at an all-time high and thousands of triathletes are getting exactly that for which they paid--crowded, prize-fight mass-start swims followed by crowded rides where drafting is hard to avoid and easy to do without much threat of penalty.

Why complain when you are voting with your hard-earned dollars already?

Chad

Wow! This thread contains some amazing concepts in tech solutions to draft control. Those may be the only way to preserve the "original" definition of triathlon.

Our current situation is not the fault of the referee, at least USAT referees. These people are well trained and experienced before they ever get the chance to influence anything. And, eventually, WTC will develop experienced, trained officials. The current problem is the bike marshalls. The typical bike marshall is a once or twice-a-year volunteer who is very likely somewhat overwhelmed that anyone could do what triathletes do. We give them a "training" program, including pro rules and age-group rules, and we expect them to pull up beside some thundering herd and do their job. They freeze. That's why you see pictures of marshalls "escorting" packs. Very few of them will be able to act once they realize what they've gotten themselves into. The t-shirt isn't nearly worth what happens to you when you do make a call. It's very traumatic to the typical volunteer. And, no one wants marshalls who enjoy making calls. That's worse.

So, the tech solutions some of you have suggested may just save the original triathlon. It for sure that the current method is unfair, and hopefully doomed.

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Jim

I'd love to see 200 guys drafting in their aero bars arriving at an aid station...
would be awesome to watch...

Slapshot in triathon

This thread shows up in some form after every major race and everyone on the board swears they will never draft, have never drafted, probably don't even know how to draft and were passed by at least 2 groups of 40+ riders cruising along passing coke cans back and forth and getting water bottles from the team car for each other.

We always come up with random ways to make penalties harsher (run 2 miles, swim 2 miles, do 1000 pushups) but of course slowtwich.com doesn't make the rules and it seems to me the GTG is even more lax on drafting then USAT.

Of course the two issues that always get brought up and we can't do anything about are:

1) There are too many people racing most IMNA events to avoid some drafting in the middle of the pack. If you swim 1:00 to 1:17 you will certainly be heading out of Transition with about 1000 people in that 17 minute span. that means lined up legally there would be a line 7km long. Since it takes most IM athletes 2 minutes to ride 1km (30kph) there would have to be an almost perfect distribution to get all 1000 people into draft legal formation. there is just no way that 1000 people getting out of the water that close together can get into draft legal for the whole race.

2) Enforcement is spotty and most people complain that it doesn't seem to happen around them. Again it seems like USAT and then GTG are mostly focused on the front of the pack. It's been argued here that it doesn't really matter if there is drafting among the 7 hour + bike crew since they are only racing for pride anyway. There is nothing more at stake. of course some argue that is cheating, but again if it's unavoidable (due to congestion) and doesn't affect anyone beyond the race (there is no prize money for 43rd place in any AG and Kona slots are highly coroalated to the top 100 race finishers) should GTG and / or USAT waste their time breaking up packs or issuing drafting violations to the back end of the field.

I think the biggest thing GTG could do is to admit they will be concentrating on the front end of the field. Be more diligent about handing out penalties and when they drive there motos through the back half just split up the packs.

I agree with Francois however that there should be more races - or more to the point more people should look at NON-WTC races and go to more of them. If you aren't in Kona range why pay more????

I like option 1, man. They would seriously think twice about drafting. The 4min "penalty" ends up being advantageous to most of who are cheating on purpose. Along with what Monty suggested yesterday (pairs of motorcycles) and the idea proposed on this thread of having radio-equipped stationary personel monitoring the course might be an alternative that could be considered seriously (Maybe?). Some form of document with suggestions should really end up on J Ric's lap...

We could bring garbage and rotten tomatoes to throw at people who get caught and end up having to run the extra miles...

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Dad, Husband, Weekend Warrior

Blog , JC Tweets

[reply]the real solution is

1. much smaller fields
2. real enforcement of the rules after reducing the size of the fields[/reply]

I can see it now. Sign up here. Field limited to 200, each rider will have an accompanying draft marshal. cost $5,000. Wonder how long it will take to sell out?

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

The easiest solution is to select an "Ironman" distance event that is not endorsed by WTC and the Ironman brand. The Redman in Oklahoma City, it was their first year and only had a total of like 400 people and that was including the half-iron distance group.

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Los

Option 1: 2 mile penalty loop for first, 4miles for second. That will scare the living daylights out of anyone. No need to ban anyone for third. Just keep adding 4 mile penality loops, ensuring a DNF. Make the "lap of shame" close to the finish line, so you actually finish your 26.2 mile and THEN do your lap of shame loops right near the finish line :-(

We need marsalls with balls enough to actually call people on it first. If you don't have that, the penalties don't mean anything.

\\Option 4. Make drafting LEGAL. \\

Given the bike handling skills of a lot of age-group triathletes, do you really want them legally able to draft around you? on aerobars?

As others have said, there are really only two possible solutions for the big ironman races - less people, or wave starts. anything else is is merely treating the symptoms, not the cause.

seriously, if you want to avoid drafting and participate is an event where you can actually race, do an unofficial ironman race. Duke, vineman, etc. I think vineman is offering a 'buy two, get one free' deal this coming year - sign up with two other friends and you only pay the cost of two enteries. A well-run race in a beautiful location, at well under half the cost of an IMNA race, without the crowding and lines everywhere. how can you go wrong?

J

"But if i have a great race there it is "WASTED" because it didn't get me to THE DANCE"

"I can see it now. Sign up here. Field limited to 200, each rider will have an accompanying draft marshal. cost $5,000. Wonder how long it will take to sell out?'



ANSWER: 6 HOURS

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Jacob