There are many very good asian frame/fork/bar/builders. Then, there are some really bad ones. Kestrel, Profile, etc. all manufacture overseas and use the best of the best over there.

Why the issues with foreign products? Ideally, made in america used to mean better quality. Unfortunately, the "world economy" has changed all of that. It used to be carbon bikes made in the states were better quality but not anymore.

Personally, I wish everything could be made here but as I am learning, even my 'soon to be introduced' aerobar is being made overseas.



Steve H.

Hey, if you need real world testers, I'd be happy to help you out! ;-)

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Thanks for that informative post. As a consumer, I worry about the durability of carbon components. Some time ago in L. Zinn's column on velonews.com, I read a reply by an Easton or Reynolds rep said that good carbon forks are more durable than steel forks. Nevertheless, in my mind, I can't erase an image that carbon components are just glorified fiberglass. I'd guess that I'm not alone as even Slowman has written an article discussing his concern about carbon forks, noting that as he ages he is more concerned about safety. (Well that was before he tossed caution to the wind and went on his IM-FL rampage.)

Are there any tips you can offer consumers when we purchase carbon components, whether bikes, wheels, bars, etc? The price range can be quite wide. Is there any way for consumers to evaluate the quality and durability of carbon components? Or in other words, how do we avoid the "really bad" manufacturers.

By the way, am I correct in assuming that your soon to be introduced aerobar is not your first carbon product offered to the triathlon/cycling market?

Thanks.

HH

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Who said anything about carbon?? It's not. I had a few prototypes out of carbon and just wasn't happy with them. I'm 6'5" and 220 lbs so I make a great test dummy and I want to make sure that it won't break.

The only reason it has taken me so long to get it done has been lack of time. I started this project when I owned Steve's Multisport and Elite Bicycles but since selling them, I've taken a breather from the industry.

As for carbon products, there are really only 3 companies in Taiwan and they all make excellent products. FSA, Kestrel, Profile, etc. all use the top guys over there. Even when it comes to alum. there are only a few good companies and QR, and other brands use the same manufacturers.

Taiwan is a great place, as well as china, russia, and even vietnam to get bike parts but you have to know who you are dealing with. I personally use a "middle man" who deals with other countries for me. I have lost patience handling that part of the business as the language barrier, importing etc. drive me crazy.

So what is this aerobar going to look like?

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Where would you want to swim ?

It just depends on who makes the part.

In the end, I don't have a problem with Taiwanese carbon fibre, but when it is charged at an American price, then I have HUGE problems with Taiwanese carbon fibre.

When speaking to some on the manufacturing end of things, I have heard some horror stories about how QC goes out the window when the Asian factory has had enough the low price they had quoted you, especially when you did not use a good (or any) agent. This is where you hope that the company who you bought your Asian-sourced has a very gifted and strong agent for the factory they have sourced from. I have heard of things such as cassettes machined backwards, mismatched threadings for stems, and the like.

My other source of disdain for Asian-made bike parts is that many Asian countries use under-aged workers in horrible conditions and have no pollution laws to speak of. This is where I really have the problem with it, you don't know who is using slave labour. But it seems that most of us have to sanction it in some way, especially when USA-made products are getting harder and harder to find.

Silly wabbit, you aren't going to see underage slave labor in Taiwan, where most carbon bike parts are made. Kids in Taiwan are in school from early morning through late afternoon, when they head straight to cram school. Cram school is not the exception, it's the expectation. Parents who don't send their kids to cram schools are considered wackos who aren't doing everything possible to allow their kids to get ahead. Even "bad" students go to supplementary schools until they demonstrate all hope of getting into a decent vocational school at the very least is lost.

I can't speak for the labor situation in China or Vietnam at present.

[reply]My other source of disdain for Asian-made bike parts is that many Asian countries use under-aged workers in horrible conditions and have no pollution laws to speak of. This is where I really have the problem with it, you don't know who is using slave labour. [/reply]

Slightly OT: but what with sport clothes and shoes the issue of slave labour really arises, so what brands do you buy? (don't say Nike!)

merz

get over it you yanks, just about everything you buy, bike equipment, frames, clothes, shoes, sporting goods or raw matierals come from and Asian country. Its a thing called globalisation and economy.
Many countries make execeptional equipment from Europe, US, Australia and NZ and of course Asia.
There is no underage sweat-shop culture in bike factories in Tiwan, or Japan, as I have spent time looking at such processes my self. China does use some children that I know of, but is certainly not Sweat shop curcumstances. Other countries like Bangladesh, Korea, HK, also produce some great things.
THe fact is that you never can be sure where things are made, and many individual components travel to different factories in different places for specific processess at different times of the year, depending on many factors such as order size, raw matieral availibility etc.
QC is very strict for many top companies, as these peoples livleyhoods depend on it, Bad product means no more business and thats it. However it is always possible that there can be issues, whereever things are made.
dont be so closedminded.
S[reply][/reply]

No, bunnyman does not like Nike AT ALL.

I wear the following:

a) New Balance

b) Mizuno

c) Assos

d) Carnac

No, not in Taiwan. But Taiwan's labour price is getting too expensive for some people. That's the rub.

I like Taiwan, as they have standards closer to the U.S., but G'd knows where everything is REALLY being made. The "outsourcers" are now outsourcing to save money.

I read in Martec's website where they are going to try and have childcare and longer holidays for their workers. I would buy from Martec, as long as they did not outsource my part in a country I know less about.

I think he expressed concern about carbon steer tubes, not forks.

 Sort of a Lavender room topic, but China scares me, not so much the children issue as they have plenty of adults that assume the labor roles.
What scares me is the unlimited growth of their economy and industry with no or very limited Pollution controls.
If you worry at all about global warming, I don't think any measure we take in the USA will offset what they are doing in China today and the next twenty years.
The long term contracts they have made for metals, oil, and wood products staggers my mind. I have no doubt that a bunch of the Asian nations make really decent stuff, but the costs may be more than the world wants to pay in the long run. Outsourced mfg has moved around. After WW II. Made in Japan meant crap, then Japan moved up. Now Japan is almost out of the mfg business as Korea, China, Cambodia, Vietnam, and a host of other developing nations are the suppliers of sportswear to the world.
Nike, Reeboc, New Balance,Addidas, Trek, and even Patagonia (who come on as "clean") outsource to the cheapest market. I even got a Patagonia short from Jamaica.
I always wonder what the hell some poor factory worker thinks when he is making some plastic tourist trinket for Hawaii, Mount Rushmore, Grand Canyon, or San Francisco. I guess it is like the rest of us, It is a job. G

This is a great question.

I think if people knew the true manufacturing origin of thier bicycles and some brands they would different than they originally imagined.

I posted a thread on this forum some time ago about a "Truth in labelling" requirement for the origin of manufacture of bicycles. It wasn't a popular notion on this forum. Based on that I would suggest that people aren't too concerned about where their bike is made or by whom.

The proof, it would appear, is in the pudding. People want the bike well made, durable, nice looking, comfortable and a reasonable value. Whether that means Taiwan, China or the U.S. as a point of manufacture seems to have become less of an issue to consumers now.

I've sold a ton of bikes as you guys know. Based on my experience the manufacturing coming out of the Asian rim is impressive and absolutely top notch. It is the "New Italy". The finest bikes are coming from there. Good. A super high quality frame can be built in Asia for less than $200 manufacturing cost. Sometimes less than $100 depending on material.

The bottom line is good design. If a company takes good design to the manufacturer chances are the end product may be good. If the designer/distributor is ruthless in their conquest of quality control then the product that reaches the consumer will be top notch.

I know of one manufacturer who has been the bane of Asian manufacturers. He has not hesitated to destroy entire production runs due to minor variances from his specifications. For him, it is either absolutely correct, or it is junk. And he has forced the manufacturer to take back a lot of junk and replace it with frames made to spec. Exact spec. And they do their own testing too.

Very, very few manufacturers actually walk that walk. Their financial resources are so taped out by the time the Asians (or whoever) deliver their frames they are in a financial position to have to sell what gets delivered- they don't have the luxury of saying, "This head tube is out of spec- scrap the production run, destroy this container of bikes and start over." Instead they have to say, "Shit, this is wrong- but we need the cash. Ship it." That goes on much more than you would imagine.

At its highest level bicycle manufacturing is a million dollar game of raobbing Peter to pay Paul. Few companies have the resources to be able to afford the ultimate luxury in this industry: Quality.

The bottom line is that

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

China should scare you. You are wise. This is not an 800 pound gorilla- it is an 80,000 pound gorilla. The Chinese are not what they used to be. They are an example of Communism "working" although I personally think that is an oxymoron.

China is emerging at warp speed from decades of oppression and backwardness. They emerge at exactly the right time- when global connectivity and disdain for the U.S. in the non-integrated gap of countries make Chine the new Superpower of choice.

We need to learn to love China. Love them deeply. Be their friends. Travel there. Conduct commerce with them. Conduct diplomacy with them. Be their ally and partner. This is one fight we cannot win.

The commerce numbers surrounding China are changing so fast it is like a 500 foot Tsunami crossing the globe at mach 3. Their interactions with the Saudis and their oil consumption numbers suggest the energence of a nation like the U.S. in the post WWII boom- but five times larger.

The question who have to ask yourself right now with regard to the global economy is: Can you speak Chinese?

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I heard from a friend of mine, an industry insider, that most of the carbon rims and handlebars are really all made from the same asian manufaturer/manufacturers, tawainese in particular.. so basically wether is is a zipp or extreme or whatever brand that it is basically the same wheel, or handlebar, etc... just spec'd out to the individual company..

is this true? anyone? bueller?

You're right, but China, and Chinese culture makes me nervous. they are fundamentally different from Western culture and don't value our priorities: namely, personal freedom, equal rights, basic human rights, etc. And, they are a Super Power, or emerging as one. I fear that we may be entering another cold war with China and North korea on the other side of the silk curtain.

North Korea and China scare me far more than Iraq, Osama, and all al Quaida put together.

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*****
"In case of flood climb to safety"

Actually he talks about using ALL STEEL forks, except US made brands he can trust like Reynolds:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...ork%20and%20reynolds

HH

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Zipp wheels are made by hand near Indianapolis, Indiana in a shop where carbon fiber race car bodies and other components are made/repaired.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

maybe I shouldn't have named names, not talking about zipps in particular.. sorry to zipp about that one..

FYI,
All of the Real Design wheels are handcrafted in Ooltewah, TN.
Cheers,
Herbert
Litespeed/QR/Real Design

Those Real Design wheels look mighty nice on the Lucero that is featured at the front of the most recent Triathlete magazine. Awesome ad. I stared at it for quite a while. Are you ready for this sacrilege: In my opinion, the Lucero is the best looking carbon bike. And as for the runner up, the new P3 carbon, I think that the curved seat tube is more gimmick than function, I'm guessing minimal aero advantage and gotta be weaker than a straight seat tube. By the way, where's the Lucero frame made (you mention the mfg. location of wheels, kinda begs the question)?

HH

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

When you say wheel, do you mean just the rims, the physical building of the wheel, or the whole package.

Are your hubs made in the us? spokes? nipples?

Also, a question in regards to the UCI and the construction of real design wheels. Are they currently uci legal? Is the carbon fairing design going to be considered legal when the uci starts enforcing the nonstructural fairing rule (of course, i imagine the fairing will become "structural";)?

"The question who have to ask yourself right now with regard to the global economy is: Can you speak Chinese?"

Yes. Mandarin perfectly and one other dialect spoken in Taiwan, southern Fujian, and parts of the Chinese diaspora like Penang and Singapore. You got any job suggestions?