What will be interesting there is the specific content of the lab director, which was a sworn statement and submitted as part of the GJ testimony.

Then again I suppose it is perfectly normal for a rider and his team manager to meet privately with the testing Lab Director around the same time of a race.

As well, not to mention the $25,000 donation and $100,000 donation that happened shortly there after. It is VERY COMMON for riders to donate money in such a manner to the UCI.

I mean look at this extensive list:

1) Lance Armstrong - $125,000
2) .... ???

Can anyone name another single rider who has made a similar donation?

Then again, when I was growing up a judge let me get out of a speeding ticket by making a donation to the Boy Scouts of America instead,

It can be eliminated.... through criminal investigations like we are seeing now.

Oh... grow up...

Criminal investigations and prosecutions haven't eliminated illegal activity in the history of the world. At best maybe they can keep it in check... maybe. Maybe they make it worse.

In this particular case of PEDs, it is even more difficult. The harder you try to eliminate it, then the greater the rewards for getting away with it. There is no possible chance that it will succeed.

When Horner first went to Europe (FDJ, mid-nineties?), he was back within a few months - there was a big article in the SD Union about it, anybody remember that? I can't recall if it was explicit, or just strongly implied, but the upshot was that he refused to dope and there wasn't any chance of being competitive without it, so he came home. Given that history, I'd be willing to believe that the modern peleton might have slowed back down to a level where his skills are competitive.

Ok, 'eliminate' is not the greatest word. But, how many of the sanctions were 'non analytical positives' and how many were actual positive drug tests? Criminal investigations would do a lot more than drug testing. Criminal investigations and prosecutions don't work in the history of the world because republics->democracies->anarchy->collapse. There is no perfect system but I choose to live my life by right/wrong or good/bad and under that philosphy people should be punished for crimes (when reasonable to do so). If you don't believe that than anarchy is that much closer to reality.

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Hey, I'm not saying or even implying that Horner is on the juice. But when a guy puts up the best results of his career at 39 / 40, it does seem odd and it is natural for people to wonder, especially given the team he is currently riding for.

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

or he changed his mind

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

'results' are based on who you race against. Look at the competition. I would also imagine all this talk on tv had some of the riders scared and less 'prepared'.

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I didn't follow racing back then but it looks like he had a little lapse int he late 90's then came back to the US to race

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Horner

Considering the top GC guys have gone from 6.6-.6.8W/kg to 6W/kg FTP I wouldn't be suprised if that has helped him be more competitive.

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Well, the primary "competition" at the 2009 Pais Vasco included Alejandro Valverde......and he was definitely gunning for the win.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Horner is a late bloomer. Seriously I think Horner is a hard worker and he has been clean for many years. I think the peloton is getting cleaner and those who work hard are going to shine.

 "I only hope that Lance takes the UCI down with him; they are the organisation that allowed this to happen and should have no further place in the sport."



That might be a little difficult if the UCI happens to be backed by a rather large and powerful criminal organisation. Having their HQ in Switzerland is interesting.

I agree up to a point, but "success" in this context is not a simple binary outcome... Philosophically speaking, it's sadly a part of human nature that as long as we have rules of any sort, some people will try to gain advantage by breaking them, so the flip side would be if we eliminated all bans, enforcement, etc, and let everyone just have at it; what might that alternative scenario look like? Bike racing has already dipped its toes in that pool, and started seeing guys mysteriously drop dead of heart attacks and such, at an alarming enough rate that they came up with the hematocrit screen as kind of a minimum "backstop" test (if only to keep people alive, as much or more so than to maintain competitive fairness). Clearly, that's not much as guys can obviously still manipulate their way up to/around the 50% cutoff, but between the two extremes of anarchy and absolute purity, we at least have to keep trying to make it as difficult as possible for the dopers to get away with it.

As others have said before, when in doubt just go back to the basic question "Would you want to/let your kid pursue elite bike racing?" We need to strive for a climate in which the new kid at least feels like he's got a shot at winning clean.

There is no perfect system but I choose to live my life by right/wrong or good/bad and under that philosphy people should be punished for crimes

Of course you can use your morality to guide your personal decisions but it is naive to impose it on other people and other situations where it is sure to fail. If you can't change it, then you have to live with it. It's obvious by simple rational analysis that it can't be eliminated, so what do we do?

Philosophically speaking, it's sadly a part of human nature that as long as we have rules of any sort, some people will try to gain advantage by breaking them

And the issue here is that if even one person has doped and gotten away with it and won races, then the system is ruined. You only need *one* cheater to completely ruin the sport!

It would be more fair (and sportsmanlike) to allow doping up to a certain level... and if anyone tests over that, slap them with a fine and a short ban. At least then everyone will get most of the benefits, and it will be a more even playing field.

All you've done there, Rod, is move the bar a bit.

Acceptance that doping was, is, and will always be a problem should NOT lead to accomodation of the practice. If we would have it that sport will continue, then we must accept the imperfection that comes with it. Athletes are imperfect people capable of extraordinary physical achievements. Many of them will reach for fame as imperfect humans, lying, cheating and stealing their way to the top. We also should accept the imperfection of the application of sporting justice. It's going to happen. Some are going to get caught. Others are not.

Accept that these things happen...in equal measure...and do our best to implement systems, evolve sports and their rules to best handle the latest challenges, and keep moving.

Acceptance doesn't mean we have to like it. Hell...we are free to hate it...and do something about it. But acceptance lets us move forward with a much clearer thought pattern than riding through the sport like a bunch of crusaders bashing and smashing.

We are where we are on it today. If the reports are true in the case at hand, then somone who looked to be getting away with cheating might not...someone important and far-reaching in cycling. That will have an impact if it happens. Be careful, though, of creating any expectation that the fight is over...or will ever be over. No matter where we draw that bar, someone will cross over it. The answer is not to move the bar. The answer is to remain steadfast, and continue the fight.

Beautifully written; Virtual high-five to you!

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Doesn't really make the greatest story a lie. Its not like peds make you a super human..If that was the case then hell we've cured cancer and now anyone whos had cancer can do what lance did.
Consider if all top guys doped as some say then its just bunch of dopers competeing against dopers... Regardless coming back from that depth of cancer to competing irregardless of what drugs might have been used is still an accomplishment.
Tour de france is not won on drugs alone(if all of this is true) its won by strategy, haveing a good team,alot of hard work(with or without the peds) ,technology(bikes,wheels,helmets)
dont get me wrong I'm against ped uses but the tour is more than just physical ability especially when all of the top contenders are physically fit and on peds(if you believe the talk).

Its not like lance swallowed a can of popeyes special spinach and his arms bulk out and hes got super human strength.
Sucks that they all think they can risk their health by using peds just to get ahead but one mans ped is another mans medicine.

It does considering the 50% rule. If the top amateurs are more likely to have a high hematocrit, say 49%, then with the 50% rule they can only take EPO to offset the loss from training whereas someone with a low hematocrit like Armstrong (38-42%), can not only take EPO to offset the loss from training/blood volume, but to also bump it to 50%. 40-50 is a 25% improvement and some studies I saw say your FTP jumps 50% of HcT improvement so that would be a 10% Bump. This correlates with the fact that GC FTP was ~6.8 then and now ~6.1. (A 10% decline). Since Hamilton said "everybody was taking EPO even before us" because there was no test, it is not suprising that EPO was able to take armstrong from a low level pro to a top notch pro because his physiology was better suited for an artificial boost.*

*Disclaimer: this could be completely wrong

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This logic has been repeated so many times.....and is soooo flawed.

1) People have been proven to respond to PEDs in general, and EPO specifically, differently. Some are "super responders." EPO can absolutely make a "race horse out of a mule." See Riis, Bjarne. Guy was at best a decent domestique....gets on a program and starts challenging for the TdF.

2) "Everyone else was doing it" is NOT a justification for cheating. I don;t accept that as an excuse from my kids, and I sure as hell don't accept it from professional athletes. YMMV.

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Everyone else was doing it" is NOT a justification for cheating. I don;t accept that as an excuse from my kids, and I sure as hell don't accept it from professional athletes. YMMV.

You still don't get it.

If everyone is doing it, then it isn't really cheating... it's part of the game. The athletes don't like it... nobody likes it. There isn't anything they (or anyone else) can do about it. It's just the way it is.

Of course they can just quit if they don't like. That is a tough one, when you are an aspiring pro athlete... especially if you have the talent to be at the very top if the playing field was even.

No, I get it just fine....but apparently you don't. If the rules say "Don't do X", it doesn't matter if everyone (or in reality, almost everyone) does it or not. It is still cheating.

Here is a question that I have yet to get a (serious) answer to.....if "everyone" is drafting up the road in Kona, does that make it OK? No...because it is against the rules.


I have seen entire fields DQ'd in road races because they cross the double yellow line. But "everyone did it" sure wasn't accepted by the race officials. Why? Because it against the rules.

So it matters not one whit if "everyone" was doping in cycling...because doping is against the rules.

Simple concept, huh?

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

If the rules say "Don't do X", it doesn't matter if everyone (or in reality, almost everyone) does it or not. It is still cheating.

Good luck trying to live in the world of your fantasy rather than the world that actually exists.

Here is a question that I have yet to get a (serious) answer to.....if "everyone" is drafting up the road in Kona, does that make it OK? No...because it is against the rules.

The pros can't and the amateurs don't matter. I'm an amateur and I don't cheat... and I don't give a damn if anyone else does. It isn't my job and I'm not going to be famous regardless.

Huh? That post makes no sense.
So we live in a world where evryone cheats? Then you say you do not. Or in the real world most cheat? The pro's can't? Can't what? Cheat? It does not matter if ameteurs cheat? How about for the other ametuers then? Why have placings then? You took this philosophy to other parts of life. I am not flaming you, I really do not get what you are saying.

You going off the deep end on us rruf?

I live in the real world without cheating.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I don't see why he should give anything back. Look at the gold medal, he finished ahead of:
1) Ekimov, long time member of a prominent team accused of systematic doping, posting a career best TT at almost 40.
2) Ullrich, documented doper.
3) Michael Rogers, connected to Ferrari in the last few years.

I'm not saying any of these guys were doped at the Olympics, but where do you stop when trying to retroactively move people up in the standings, especially with such questionable circumstances? Get the truth out, let the past be the past as it relates to results, and move on to a cleaner sport. Doping and cheating will always be there in every sport, but it can be made less core to the culture of cycling with today's efforts.