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Shimano Gravel: Big day today
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don't know if you saw this, but i think a lot of you will like it. shimano GRX. gravel-specific groupsets all up and down the price range. (pardon if there's already a thread. i didn't see it if so.)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I was just getting ready to post this. After appearing to be sitting by quietly on the sidelines, Shimano has gone full "LeRoy Jenkins" into gravel today with 4 levels (including Di2), 1x and 2x (with specific, optimized RD's), 10 and 11 speed, dropper post control levers, "gravel" specific crankset gearing, +2.5mm chainline (for more tire clearance to the FD), and cross-compatibility with existing road groups (with the exception of a recommendation that cranksets and FD's match, due to different chainlines). There's some unique stuff here, too, like 48/31 chainrings and secondary hydraulic brake levers for riding on the tops.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: May 7, 19 10:45
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. I am in the middle of trying to build an all-roads bike. I was thinking Ultegra Di2, but I guess I’ll have to investigate and see if this would be a better option

Matt
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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48/31 chainrings (assuming they shift!) sound awesome.
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Those hydro cross top brakes look nice. I'd be keen to try those. I also like what they did with the brake lever axis on the "gravel" hoods.

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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Those hydro cross top brakes look nice. I'd be keen to try those. I also like what they did with the brake lever axis on the "gravel" hoods.

I thought their reasoning that most people ride the hoods during technical sections a bit odd.

If you're not in the drops when things get gnarly (especially with flared bars), then "you're doing it wrong."

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with you and think the reason is wrong but the solution is right. The higher lever axis would be welcome (for me) in everyday riding.
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Those hydro cross top brakes look nice. I'd be keen to try those. I also like what they did with the brake lever axis on the "gravel" hoods.


I thought their reasoning that most people ride the hoods during technical sections a bit odd.

If you're not in the drops when things get gnarly (especially with flared bars), then "you're doing it wrong."

i agree with you.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Hmm, I think I am almost always on the hoods on technical uphill sections. Flats and descending, usually in the drops.
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
I thought their reasoning that most people ride the hoods during technical sections a bit odd.

If you're not in the drops when things get gnarly (especially with flared bars), then "you're doing it wrong."
I wonder if the *actual* reason was just that it was mechanically convenient to make the change. The typical brifter pivot location isn't just a matter of ergonomics, it's heavily influenced by the need to attach the brake cable and give it the desired pull ratio.
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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They need an XTR level 11-36 11 speed cassette.
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Those hydro cross top brakes look nice. I'd be keen to try those. I also like what they did with the brake lever axis on the "gravel" hoods.


I thought their reasoning that most people ride the hoods during technical sections a bit odd.

If you're not in the drops when things get gnarly (especially with flared bars), then "you're doing it wrong."
I'd say its more optimized for cross. But increased height on the hoods and better braking are a good thing for gravel too. While you should be in the drops on descents, you're often on the hoods in bumpy straight terrain as well. Was never an issue on my SRAM HRDs, but I've definitely had a hand bounced off the hoods in gravel in a paceline and its a puckering experience, and I always keep at least a pinky wrapped under the lever
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Those hydro cross top brakes look nice. I'd be keen to try those. I also like what they did with the brake lever axis on the "gravel" hoods.

What I don't like is the re-shaping of the hood that effectively makes the lever body 1cm or so longer.

And I'd love it if they got down to 28 or even 26 for that small ring. SRAM doesn't seem to have a problem doing it with a 80mm inner BCD.

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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [bootsie_cat] [ In reply to ]
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bootsie_cat wrote:
They need an XTR level 11-36 11 speed cassette.

Well, that would be 12 speed. They need to finish getting their current xtr out anyhow. It took nearly a year to get the entire group set out and they didn't even release the hubs they initially showed. The crank was missing most of a year. I wouldn't be surprised if this gravel group didn't show up for a bit. Probably a little late to be found on 2020 bikes. Hopefully I'm wrong on that.
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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If you're not in the drops when things get gnarly (especially with flared bars), then "you're doing it wrong."

Yeah, no.



Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Higher axis on the shifters would be amazing. I'm kind of surprised they don't do it to their road group set.

Now for the dropper post option? Not sure if the geometry of gravel bikes are made for that.....

All in all...I will look at this for my next bike, which hopefully will be in a year or two.
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
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If you're not in the drops when things get gnarly (especially with flared bars), then "you're doing it wrong."


Yeah, no.


Why do they even have drops on those bikes? They appear to never use them...(fashion?)

Besides, I didn't see too many flared bar ends on those bikes either...

...and, that course didn't seem to have very much downhill...and due to the thick mud, even the flat sections required "uphill" type effort.

So...not really an apropos example of what I was talking about. Nice try though ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
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If you're not in the drops when things get gnarly (especially with flared bars), then "you're doing it wrong."


Yeah, no.


question. would like your opinion on this. i'm not a cx racer. but i watch it. and it's clear that cx riders may as well almost not have drops, to the point that the hoods-exclusive position informs the geometry of the bikes. but, is this one difference between gravel and cx? because, cx racers are constantly on and off the bikes, and it's much easier to mount and dismount, push the bike, etc., from the hoods position. gravel is a different use case. if i'm on and off my gravel bike that much, i've got the wrong tires or i'm in the wrong race or something.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Really? I thought you were talking about "gnarly" descending? Roughly 95% of the folks on this forum would be walking every one of those descents, so seems pretty gnarly to me. Walking "in the drops" though, I guess.

That was just the first race that popped up on Google, but let's go with the Koppenberg. 600m + of descent per lap and no mud.

https://youtu.be/kd8OjXhd5SI?t=2237" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen>




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Why do they even have drops on those bikes? They appear to never use them...(fashion?)

It must be fashion! Certainly has nothing to do with the bike handling advantages of the position for off-road riding. Funny thing, we've recently seen plenty of road race footage of the guys who won both of these off-road races, and WvA and VdP both ride in the drops plenty...



On the road. Where it is advantageous to do so.

FWIW, almost all of the bars in that previous vid have at least 2cm of flare to them, but you're probably referring to the trendy super-wide dirt drop style bars. Like the WTB ones on the Ibis frame that's been sitting in my storage unit for about 30 years. It's been kind of amusing to watch those reappear as gravel bikes continue to recapitulate early Mtb development. How long do we have to wait for someone to re-invent the gooseneck stem, so that folks can start putting the dropped part of those bars in the plane of the current hoods position, as wound up happening the last time around?

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
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If you're not in the drops when things get gnarly (especially with flared bars), then "you're doing it wrong."


Yeah, no.


Agree, i race cat 1 CX and never ride in the drops. Same for gravel, 95% of the time on the top.
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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It has less to do with mounting/remounting than one would think. Watch that second vid... no remounts on that course at all, and that's not uncommon these days.

CX positioning takes its cues from both road riding and Mtb riding, and the dominance of the hoods position reflects the higher/shorter rider positioning that is essentially omnipresent in the Mtb world. The more "gnarly" the terrain you are going to ride down, the more you find yourself wanting a taller front end. When you're down in the drops, you simply can't control your weight bias and front wheel the same way you can on the hoods. Don't believe me? Try doing a manual or a J-hop in the drops, then do the same in the hoods.
We're already seeing gravel riding get more and more technically demanding, and the rider positioning will adapt to follow. Plus folks are eventually going to realize that a lot of the flats they're getting are because the position they ride in means they slam into stuff rather than (lift) and roll over it.

As mentioned in the last post, I still have my old Ibis Mtb, complete with dirt drops and gooseneck stem that puts the drops in the vertical and horizontal plane of the traditional hoods position.
How long before we see those stems make their gravel reemergence?
Cross went through a phase of everyone and their brother putting "Runkel" levers on their bars so that when things got steep and rough they could ride high and tight on the tops like a Mtb. Some riders even began running flat bars on their cross bikes, culminating with a Worlds silver medal wining performance by Thomas Frishknecht in 97. Shortly after this, the UCI banned flat bars from CX out of a reasonable fear that widespread adoption of flat bars would eventually turn CX into something that looked way too much like MTBing.
Much like the "invisible aerobars" on the road, though, as easy as it is to ban a piece of equipment, it's quite another thing to stop riders from adopting a positional advantage. Eventually it became clear that the answer was to shorten the front end, roll the hoods back, and ride the hoods, the Runkel levers went away, and it's now incredibly rare to see a top rider on the drops on a non paved descent

Shimano just came out with a hydro Runkel lever, and now gravel riders can spend their money (and a couple/few years) figuring this same thing out for themselves.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
Cross went through a phase of everyone and their brother putting "Runkel" levers on their bars so that when things got steep and rough they could ride high and tight on the tops like a Mtb. Some riders even began running flat bars on their cross bikes, culminating with a Worlds silver medal wining performance by Thomas Frishknecht in 97. Shortly after this, the UCI banned flat bars from CX out of a reasonable fear that widespread adoption of flat bars would eventually turn CX into something that looked way too much like MTBing.

So, the answer to my first question above IS "fashion". Why didn't you just say so ;-)

Also, a part of my "you're doing it wrong" statement has to do with the positioning of the bars themselves. That's why my gravel bike drop bars are positioned higher and further back than the drop bars on my road bike (which are already positioned higher - and user a deeper drop- than what is the current fashion for road bar positioning).

In other words, if the position of the bars (and their configuration, i.e. "flare") don't make the drops the go-to position for gnarly descending...then you're doing THAT part wrong. That's the most secure hand position on the bars.

The way I look at it, the gravel "hoods" position should be more like the old "hands on the barends" position from mountain-biking (before that fell out of fashion too). The drops position should be such that the hands are rotated out a bit (this is where the flare comes into play) to make the hands be a bit wider and more "MTB-like" than a traditional road drops hand position for better control while. But, that's just my take on it (FWIW).

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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If by "fashion" you mean "the smart way to do this shit is on a mtb" then, sure. And, again, we've been through this before. Go ahead, move your drops up and back until they're where your hoods are now, and keep right on going until eventually you just wind up with a flat bar. Congrats, you've re-invented the Mtb.

My hands are plenty secure on my hoods, and I still have the drops position for when I want it, on steep paved descents, riding on the flats, and in sprints. IOW, gee... i've reinvented the road bike.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Since we are all talking about positioning on the hoods vs drops.

Does anyone find a benefit of going with a bit of flare on their handlebars? I currently have zero flare but looking at going with a Salsa cowbell or similar. Is it just a comfort thing or do you find it a bit more stability when descending?
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Re: Shimano Gravel: Big day today [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
If by "fashion" you mean "the smart way to do this shit is on a mtb" then, sure. And, again, we've been through this before. Go ahead, move your drops up and back until they're where your hoods are now, and keep right on going until eventually you just wind up with a flat bar. Congrats, you've re-invented the Mtb.

My hands are plenty secure on my hoods, and I still have the drops position for when I want it, on steep paved descents, riding on the flats, and in sprints. IOW, gee... i've reinvented the road bike.


Aaah...but you see, having learned from the past, I'm not going to "keep going", as you say...I'm going to put it in a median position that gives the best compromise for both, since that will result in something that I can not only enjoy riding on easy to moderately difficult off-road bits, but that is enjoyable to ride to the trailhead to boot :-)

That to me is really "the point" of the current all-road/gravel bike setups. When I first put one together my thought when I took it off-road was "Hey...this is just like the old rigid MTBs of the late '80s, just with drop bars. Oh, and it's not a dog to ride to the trailhead like those bikes". Taking it further (flat bars, longer travel suspension, dropper posts, knobbies, etc.) and "re-inventing the MTB" is too much...that's not the point IMO.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: May 8, 19 11:56
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