If you respect the dynamics of the group ride and not use the ebike to hammer your fellow cyclist, I really don't think anyone will care.

Are you trying to justify the new e-bike you just bought?

Yes def magnitude of gain.

This even happens in pools when someone shows up with a wetsuit and you hear the side comments about it in the chatter about the unfair advantage it gives in pool speed

ha ha... No but I’m getting old and I’m not ready to down grade the the b ride just yet, so maybe.

.. since years I'm looking for a 1200Wh e-bike that goes easy up to 45km/h to have fun with .. still waiting .. oSo >>

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Order of magnitude is a secondary consideration. The primary consideration is that there is a difference between adding extra power (and significant amount, at that) vs. saving power. In the context of riding on the road, I am not aware of any way of adding power that is looked upon favorably in a) a group context and/or b) competition. Of course, go wild if you are neither competing nor riding in a group, but once you are in a group where the expectation is that everything is naturally powered, you would be committing a faux pas.

Alternatively, I'll add that there is eMTB competition, where everyone ahead of time knows and agrees to the term of usage of a supplementary motor. Again, in which case, go ahead and use the motor.

ETA: if the group allows one to use an ebike (either as as an ad hoc exemption for a specific rider or is otherwise known to allow people on ebikes to come along), then it would be no issue.

depending model, cheapest ebike starts you at 250w, mid class at 500... so the watt savings of your real bicycle doesnt compare. To add, the instant torque of e-motors destroys human power / fossil fuel power, so quiet dangerous in a group ride

Can you list the aerodynamic equipment I can buy that will give me 250 watts of benefit?

Now how about 250 watts even when I'm not pedaling?

To take advantage of aerodynamic gains, you have to be pedaling. To get the gains advertised, you generally have to be pedaling hard enough to go 30mph. With an e-bike you can leave your group in the dust without pedaling at all....

Now, if you want to ride with some people that you are not capable of keeping up with, of course not in a race, and they want you around, then sure no problem. Just don't try to brag to anyone about how you were first to the top of the climb...
My father-in-law was in chemo fighting lymphoma but did not want to back out of doing RAGBRAI with his sons, so he got an e-bike and did it with them. It was great.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Interestingly, I had exactly this happen to me this weekend. Riding in the faster group of our Saturday long ride a long time member, who was always strong on flat, but struggled on the hills was riding out of his skin. I've had a few months off so was really impressed by how he'd got stronger. And of course then I clocked the big BB.

I chatted to him after, he's an older rider, and had a couple of health issues that meant without the e-bike he'd not be able to ride even with the slower of our groups (on the hills). So this allowed him still to get out and ride with us on 100-120km rides each week.

Some thoughts:
1) It relies on him being very skilled when on the front so as not to split the group which in a headwind or rolling gradient is very easy. It took a few weeks of 'feedback' from the bunch to get that apparently.
2) On flat/descents the gearing of his and the motor means he gets no assistance over 40kph, so did get dropped a few times, but then even though we normally run a no-drop, he gets left and catches up once we hit the up. Only time he really suffered was near the end and we were sitting on 45kph through a few sets of lights as we all smelt the end of ride coffee and he got stranded far side of a red light. Context we were putting out 350-400w and so when his motor cut out he was closer to 250-300w.
3) On the hill he predictably flew up. Was crazy
4) There is now a problem with Strava segments. He's fine as he's coded as e-bike, but if he's with us then remembering which segments he was on the front for is never going to happen, and so I'm not sure how it is possible to account for being in a group with an e-bike in it. I can definitely see how it would be possible to get advantage over a normal group ride. But then in some ways now all strava segment top 10s rely on drafting a stronger rider for some of the segment, which means you've an advantage if you're working with someone else. I've not resolved this either practically or morally.*

Basically the e-bike doesn't help you at high speeds. Opposite of all the aero $$ that is most effective the higher the speed. So on a windless or tail wind group ride you are going to be marginal. On the hills, you definitely are going to be way way stronger than anyone else.

*Ironically the segment we all got into the hall of fame (positions 2-8) was a long one where we dropped the e-bike for 5km and then he didn't sniff the front of pack after he rejoined.

A fully-faired recumbent.

I'm going to be real honest with you, let it die.

For starters:
For the same "type bikes"......road for road, TT for TT, gravel for gravel........the marginal gains "bought" is going to at best be like 30w. Most folks around town are adding well over 200 to 250w add from an e-bike. Not 25 or 30w.

So, the logic of your "well you can buy watts on a pedal bike" is a little disingenuous.

I'm a strong advocate for an e-bike for commuters, or for folks touring a country, or folks in rehabilitation that live in hilly areas. Amazing tool. Don't show up to work soaked in sweat. Able to go ride and rehabilitate yourself from injury or surgery or heart ailment. Able to bike tour a country and see amazing things.

I'm a strong advocate against folks trying to use e-bikes as a "hey wait for me" tool. Cycling with a pedal bike in groups is "sport" as much as playing tennis with your neighbor. There is a requisite amount of fitness and ability required for both. So, it's a very childish venture to try to use an e-bike to "keep up with" the local A-group ride.

If you grow older and weaker (or just are lazier and less fit), that's just too bad. The Tour de France won't let a 90 year old former rider "race" with their e-bike to feel included.

Find a friend or group of friends that will let you do this if you're hell bent on it. I'm sure there's some perfectly cool with it. If I had an elder dad that wanted to ride with me on a training ride, shoot yeah. But I wouldn't invite him along to weeknight worlds.

If you can't make the A-group, blowing $8000 on a new race bike with Ceramicspeed everything will NOT keep you in the mix on "weeknight worlds". Unless your ride is so out of tune that it's darn near un-rideable to begin with.

I came around to ebikes in degrees. At first, I couldn't stand the notion.

Then I started to agree that the entire cycling community benefits when we broaden the base.

And then I heard about situations like the other posters describe. Situations where age or illness or simply just less fitness/talent limited the potential opportunities for a group of riding friends. Situations where an ebike helped keep the gang together.

More recently, a friend bought an ebike for his wife. Previously, she was an agreeable but ultimately ambivalent rider. Now she is glad to hammer with him. And he loves getting crushed by her.

So, consider me convinced. If a motor keeps the party rolling, then a motor is okay. And maybe one motor for the slow guy is a smarter net investment than a bushel of marginal gains for the fast guy.

In your first paragraph, you stated "you are spending money ... as a means to keep up with your group or leave them behind." I agree completely. About the keeping up and about the leaving behind. About the marginal gains and about the motor.

We all know, in the end, who does and does not have a motor. Just like we all know who does and who does not have a fancy bike. So when I show up on my steel 9 speed and keep pace on the climbs, we all know, in our heart of hearts, who is the boss.

Fwiw a group that still rides quite hard aroud here had a regular recumbent guy very welcome with the group and he used a powered assist to help on hills to offset the recumbent penalty on climbing. I too was fine with it given it let him stay with the group.

As mentioned, there is a difference between reducing resistance and artificially adding watts. The essence of cycling from a competitive standpoint is that it is human powered.

Personally, in any competitive group ride I'm fine with folks using an ebike to keep up. Just stay in the pack near the back. You don't get to use that extra wattage to attack, pull back breaks, string out the group, etc. In short, don't use your extra power to impact other people's experience.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
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"Recumbent penalty" is mostly what it's called when someone is weaker than the roadies in the pack, but doesn't want to admit that they would be struggling on the flats as well if it weren't for their aerodynamic advantage.

As long as someone is used to siting and spinning from the recumbent posture, so that their sustained power isn't notably lower than on a road bike, the only penalty that a recumbent really has on climbs is a moderate hit to weight. For a decent performance-oriented build, even on steep hills this isn't really a catastrophic penalty; on hills that are very shallow or have dips, it can be partially or even fully offset by the aerodynamic advantage.

Here we go.
You may as well get used to the fact that this will happen in all areas of your life.

Either way, there’s not gonna be a motor for the other aspects of your aging life.

Make new friends, get wiser.
B and C rides are fun too.
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