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Re: Sam Long coaching change [Thebigturtle] [ In reply to ]
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Thebigturtle wrote:
Absorption rate of carbohydrates and nutrients in general is highly variable. There are so many factors that go into it. The graph that Dan Plews posted is incomplete at best and in some ways misleading as it seems to suggest one size fits all. Big fast endurance athletes like Sam Long and Kristian Blummfeldt have huge caloric needs when they are racing. Furthermore, our bodies fat oxidation is optimized for lower exercise intensities, with increasing reliance on oxidation of carbohydrates when exercising at higher speeds. The reality is, when you are burning 1200-1400 calories per hour at half IM racing intensity, you are going to need a LOT of carbs. The body as a rule is highly adaptable, and I have no doubt that larger elite endurance athletes can train their bodies to absorb 120 grams of carbs per hour, if not more. 120 grams of carbs is only 480 cals...

To be fair to Dan, on the HTT podcast he agreed a guy like Sam pushing 300+W would need massive amounts of carbs for a full IM. The number he stated Sam needs was closer to the 200+g/hr range in a full IM which is probably unsustainable (this estimate was presumably based on RER/VO2 testing data). Hence Dan’s attempt to increase Sam’s fat oxidation rates.

The point where I think Dan goes wrong is locking in on the 90g/hr rate and ignoring the evidence higher rates are attainable (and necessary, for Sam). Sam is like a ticking time bomb on every full distance race and clearly has glycogen depletion issues that need to be addressed, but that’s also the case for most people who have to overcome a 5 minute deficit after every swim. That should be priority #1, and perhaps some nutritional manipulation can be used to further improve his ability to protect glycogen stores.
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [Nick2413] [ In reply to ]
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http://Sam is like a ticking time bomb on every full distance race and clearly has glycogen depletion issues that need to be addressed, but that’s also the case for most people who have to overcome a 5 minute deficit after every swim.

Makes more sense as to why the top 4 at Kona all came out in the front group in the swim. Sounds like those coming out 4,5,6 minutes down out of the swim are bumping into physiological limits of making up the deficit from the swim in the bike and run.

Tim

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Re: Sam Long coaching change [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
http://Sam is like a ticking time bomb on every full distance race and clearly has glycogen depletion issues that need to be addressed, but that’s also the case for most people who have to overcome a 5 minute deficit after every swim.

Makes more sense as to why the top 4 at Kona all came out in the front group in the swim. Sounds like those coming out 4,5,6 minutes down out of the swim are bumping into physiological limits of making up the deficit from the swim in the bike and run.

Tim
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One of the arguments I have always had with triathletes who dismiss the benefits of getting their Ironman swim times down is that,those who get out of the water at 55 to 60min are already on their bikes refueling for the rest of the day while the 75-90min guys are still out there in the water swimming themselves into a hole and that is before they then get on the bike and try to make up for lost time. The 2hr folks must take a very,very long time on the bike before they ever replenish what they have burned,if they ever manage to.
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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I tell athletes that all time too. The other aspect no one mentions is the rate of DNF increases dramatically when an athlete swims slower than 1h30m. The race is about efficiency across 3 disciplines not just two. The old wisdom of making it through the swim and then "hammering" the bike and run is showing its age.

Tim

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Re: Sam Long coaching change [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
http://Sam is like a ticking time bomb on every full distance race and clearly has glycogen depletion issues that need to be addressed, but that’s also the case for most people who have to overcome a 5 minute deficit after every swim.

Makes more sense as to why the top 4 at Kona all came out in the front group in the swim. Sounds like those coming out 4,5,6 minutes down out of the swim are bumping into physiological limits of making up the deficit from the swim in the bike and run.

Tim

So perhaps his recent coaching not source of his 2 recent race wins, but more so due to weak swim fields aka B level pro race
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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The better you become as a triathlete, the more important the swim becomes. That is more true in todays pro scene than it has ever been. At a certain point, going faster on the bike/run becomes a zero sum game, but improving your swim speed through technique improvements is free time without a significant energy cost. Sam's swim seems to be improving although it remains to be seen if it will be ever be good enough to put him in position to take down the very top guys like KB, Frodo, or now Max Neumann...
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [Thebigturtle] [ In reply to ]
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but improving your swim speed through technique improvements is free time without a significant energy cost.

It won't just be technique, it's fitness too.

Tim

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Re: Sam Long coaching change [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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As long as you're defining PTO Ibiza as B level, then ok.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [Thebigturtle] [ In reply to ]
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Thebigturtle wrote:
The better you become as a triathlete, the more important the swim becomes. That is more true in todays pro scene than it has ever been. At a certain point, going faster on the bike/run becomes a zero sum game, but improving your swim speed through technique improvements is free time without a significant energy cost. Sam's swim seems to be improving although it remains to be seen if it will be ever be good enough to put him in position to take down the very top guys like KB, Frodo, or now Max Neumann...

Got a few mates that are top age groupers that could really be challenging the top open guys, but are giving up so much time in the swim. I reckon people in this situation or even pros like Sanders should ditch triathlon for a year and swim 100%. Squad swim, race OWS, swim meets etc Not just to improve technique or swim fitness, but learning how to race open water. I'm always surprised how many people don't draft in the swim or only draft for a minute or two.
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
As long as you're defining PTO Ibiza as B level, then ok.

Sam didn't race in Ibiza, not sure what you are on about.
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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I guess TheStroBro judges field strengths in PTO Ibiza, 70.3 St. George and 70.3 Gulf Coast to be about the same.

(It has nothing to do with him being a bit of an Ironman fanboy and PTO critic LOL)

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [kajet] [ In reply to ]
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kajet wrote:
I guess TheStroBro judges field strengths in PTO Ibiza, 70.3 St. George and 70.3 Gulf Coast to be about the same.

(It has nothing to do with him being a bit of an Ironman fanboy and PTO critic LOL)

Phttt.
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
As long as you're defining PTO Ibiza as B level, then ok.

That's one of the funniest comments I have read on ST.
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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chrisb12 wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
As long as you're defining PTO Ibiza as B level, then ok.

Sam didn't race in Ibiza, not sure what you are on about.

The idea that St George and Florida 70.3 weren't A Level races. Which they were.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
chrisb12 wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
As long as you're defining PTO Ibiza as B level, then ok.

Sam didn't race in Ibiza, not sure what you are on about.

The idea that St George and Florida 70.3 weren't A Level races. Which they were.
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They were "B" grade races and it is okay to admit it.
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
chrisb12 wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
As long as you're defining PTO Ibiza as B level, then ok.

Sam didn't race in Ibiza, not sure what you are on about.

The idea that St George and Florida 70.3 weren't A Level races. Which they were.


Comedian of the month award is yours.
There is about 6 or 7 A level races a year and those 2 definitely were not one of them.
Ibiza. us open , 70.3 worlds and ironman worlds and the male Roth field
Oceanside was just about one, in the female race but still a good bit behind Ibiza.
Btw you don't actually win the comedian of the month award that goes to the guy from pro Tri news that was talking about how good a 1.18 standalone half marathon is for an female ITU triathlete is .
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [pk] [ In reply to ]
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pk wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
chrisb12 wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
As long as you're defining PTO Ibiza as B level, then ok.


Sam didn't race in Ibiza, not sure what you are on about.


The idea that St George and Florida 70.3 weren't A Level races. Which they were.



Comedian of the month award is yours.
There is about 6 or 7 A level races a year and those 2 definitely were not one of them.
Ibiza. us open , 70.3 worlds and ironman worlds and the male Roth field
Oceanside was just about one, in the female race but still a good bit behind Ibiza.
Btw you don't actually win the comedian of the month award that goes to the guy from pro Tri news that was talking about how good a 1.18 standalone half marathon is for an female ITU triathlete is .

And the athlete with that time came in second in the Yokohama race. I'd bet she could run a bit faster currently!

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Re: Sam Long coaching change [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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natethomas wrote:
pk wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
chrisb12 wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
As long as you're defining PTO Ibiza as B level, then ok.


Sam didn't race in Ibiza, not sure what you are on about.


The idea that St George and Florida 70.3 weren't A Level races. Which they were.



Comedian of the month award is yours.
There is about 6 or 7 A level races a year and those 2 definitely were not one of them.
Ibiza. us open , 70.3 worlds and ironman worlds and the male Roth field
Oceanside was just about one, in the female race but still a good bit behind Ibiza.
Btw you don't actually win the comedian of the month award that goes to the guy from pro Tri news that was talking about how good a 1.18 standalone half marathon is for an female ITU triathlete is .


And the athlete with that time came in second in the Yokohama race. I'd bet she could run a bit faster currently!

more relevant to stro bro, like stro bro the guys also had no idea that a world cup race is not a A race level as they had nicole van der kaay as one of race favorites since she had won some world cup races this year. when she is more like a 15th to 30th finisher in world series racing.

anyway enough of this
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [pk] [ In reply to ]
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Well clearly we have different definitions of an 'A' race. Although your point of view there being only 6-7 is chill I suppose. But that's your point of view.

Please show me the post on this forum that defines the level of races, not the level of race determined by pk. Been here 7 years and it's always interesting who says what but it's usually used to degrade folks performance rather than uplift the performance.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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The headline on daily tri podcast this morning is "sam long dominates north america after firing coach dan plews"

That week training under his own tutelage was really groundbreaking, no thanks to DanđŸ˜„
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [Lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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Trained under Ryan Bolton for years and had his breakout season under Ryan. Had shit training and two bad results under Dan who lives a half a world away...not sure Keto Dan had anything to do with him since he fired him like right after Oceanside and barely started working with him in November.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [Lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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Lacticturkey wrote:
The headline on daily tri podcast this morning is "sam long dominates north america after firing coach dan plews"

That week training under his own tutelage was really groundbreaking, no thanks to DanđŸ˜„

'dominate' is a big word, but it's definitely nice to see that he's finding his form again after a stretch of frustration. to my mind he was really only race lionel and jackson in those events. i've got some faith that laundry will continue to improve and find his range. lionel . . . i don't know. it seems to me he's sort of in the wilderness at the moment.

the absence of guys like kanute and von burg probably diminishes the status of some of these as 'north american' races, and honestly i think neither has a patch on ibiza. here's how i think of it: there were only 3 guys who were going to win sam's last two races - sam, lionel, and jackson. but at ibiza, there were a ton of guys who could conceivably have won, and the way the dynamics would play out was anyone's guess.

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Re: Sam Long coaching change [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
Trained under Ryan Bolton for years and had his breakout season under Ryan. Had shit training and two bad results under Dan who lives a half a world away...not sure Keto Dan had anything to do with him since he fired him like right after Oceanside and barely started working with him in November.


In any case, if you list all the coaches who have contributed to Sam Long's recent wins, Sam Long is a distant last IMO.

Whether you allocate more of this coaching success to Bolton or Plews (or the swim coach) is a wholly different matter.

"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden
Last edited by: kajet: May 16, 23 5:33
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:

the absence of guys like kanute and von burg probably diminishes the status of some of these as 'north american' races, and honestly i think neither has a patch on ibiza. here's how i think of it: there were only 3 guys who were going to win sam's last two races - sam, lionel, and jackson. but at ibiza, there were a ton of guys who could conceivably have won, and the way the dynamics would play out was anyone's guess.
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The fact that Ali Brownlee got more PTO ranking points for coming 6th in Ibiza than Sam did for winning St George 70.3 on the same day shows exactly what the difference in the races were. I doubt his win at the Gulf Coast 70.3 will be worth considering for his "Three best" races for end of year points as it is a low tier race.
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Re: Sam Long coaching change [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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ThailandUltras wrote:
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The fact that Ali Brownlee got more PTO ranking points for coming 6th in Ibiza than Sam did for winning St George 70.3 on the same day shows exactly what the difference in the races were. I doubt his win at the Gulf Coast 70.3 will be worth considering for his "Three best" races for end of year points as it is a low tier race.

Not really, the Moritz event company points are not a fair marker of where the athlete is. They overweight their events to compel appearances by the top athletes. Yet you had a ton of people pull out, opt for ITU Long Course Worlds, or choose Ironman events. Which says a lot about what some of the most "vocal" PTO athletes have started to do. Or rather reverted to doing, prioritize IMWC.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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