In many cases it's the other way around -- the speed will determine the mechanics. Sounds strange, but follow me a bit.

I basically learned to run when in jr high, doing the 440/880 double. Sure, I had run prior to that, but it was inconsistent childhood play. In track, I was running consistently and with purpose, ingraining the form in me to run fast. Later in life, as the distances increased, I was able to keep the speed high because (at least I believe it to be true) I had already ingrained the form to run fast.

Now it's been years since I've run consistently. I've also gained over 50 lbs since then (through weight training). When I run now, I'm pretty slow (compared to what I used to be). But when I decide to pick it up, my form automatically goes back to my higher-speed days.

The point? It may well be that your form is holding you back, if your form doesn't change with your speed. It doesn't matter so much how many miles you put in, if the form is bad, you're just re-learning that bad form with every footstrike. How can this be remedied? Run fast. I'll bet your form changes, at least a little bit. Does it feel out of control? Then reign it in a bit until it feels better. Keep at it. Obviously you can't run all your mileage at high intensity, or you'll get injured. But you'll want to do enough that the new form gets ingrained into your subconscious. It gets easier the more you do it.

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

https://triomultisport.com/
http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

I'm pretty much in the same boat. Started running at about 12 until I was 18, then I took time off in undergrad. Now, I'm 26 and have been running consistently for a few years. It was a heck of a time at first, I feel so uncomfortable at the slower speeds, but I couldn't run for very long at 6-7 minute miles. It made for a very frustrating time trying to get back in shape. I'm finally getting there. I'm more comfortable running slow, but I tell you, there is a point when I start running faster that everything just starts to feel so natural and right, and I start to get more on my forefoot. I believe it is because this is the form I ran with through out my grade school years, when I could rip out 6 minute miles with ease. Man, I wish I never stopped running.

I second the idea that speed determines mechanics.

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"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."

What blows me away is that when watching some of the top runners, their biomechanics seems "wrong". Sort of like when Euro bikers (VanLierde, Hellrider, etc.) blow off the IM bike field riding shallow angles or non aero tubing. That's just not supposed to happen.

Unfortunately I don't have any running background to fall back on. My running consisted of being able to run around bases and chase fly balls. My form seems to be the same even when I run fast. If I push as hard as I can it's possible to do a mile in about 6:15. The increased speed comes from increasing the cadence, not better form. I just can't maintain that cadence in longer runs as it puts me well over LT.

Are there some kind of drills to learn better mechanics? In swimming the drills have helped shape a more efficient stroke. It was very slow at first but after learning it and practicing I got much faster.

Perhaps the fact that I'm 47 and never learned to run properly at a young age is a limiting factor. Maybe the goals and expectations I have for myself are too high. Maybe I just need a few more years of running experience.

High knee drills -- start with your arms at your sides. Now bend the elbow 90 degrees (keeping the elbow at your side) and have you palms facing down (like you are ready to start typing). Do 100-yard repeats where the idea is not to run fast, but to pull your knees up so they hit your hands. Forward progress should be slow, but turnover will be pretty rapid. You'll find yourself on your toes as well -- just a natural reaction.

Running stairs -- stadium stairs work very well for this, as the grade tends to get steeper the higher up you go. Good push-off work and high knees as well.

Barefoot running -- without the shock absorption of the shoe, you tend to get into a midfoot strike naturally, even on grass (which I recommend).

Downhill running -- doing downhill strides will go a long ways to opening up the stride and gettin gused to higher speed. Don't go too steep, though, as the increased impact will tend to cause injury.

Make sure your arm motion is forward and back, not side to side. Keep your hands loose (an easy way to do this is to just have the tips of your thumb, forefinger and middle finger together, rather than a clenched fist).

If you can find some old videos of Sebastian Coe (British middle distance runner in the late 70s, early 80s) you'd see perfect speed running form (though translating that to 10Ks can be a challenge, so ignore his stride length).

Hope that helps.

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

https://triomultisport.com/
http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

Go to the track and run some 200's and 400's all out. Stay on your toes, and don't overstride. You get the speed from keeping your feet underneath you and pushing back. If you'd rather do something more applicable to triathlon distance runs (5K +), do 800 repeats. I'd almost throw some shorter things in there, just to get used to the way the body needs to change in order to get fast. However, I don't think those are going to help you with triathlon races at all. If you're a 6' 15" miler, then do your 800's shooting for 3'. At first it will probably be tough, so only do a few (maybe 3-4), and take a couple minutes in between. Work it up to less rest and trying to go faster, you're going to have to be your own coach here. If you do these once or so a week for a while, I can almost garuantee you'll bring that mile time down. Do some 400's at 1' 30" with a 1' rest. If this is easy, try to go a little faster. Make sure you check your 200 m splits on both the 800's and 400's to make sure you are pacing right. Endurance comes from miles, speed comes from intervals.

That's my input, try it at your own risk. I'm not a coach, doctor, and I never ran competatively after high school, so it may not be worth the pixels your reading it on.

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"What the mind can conceive and believe, the mind and body can achieve; and those who stay will be champions."

I would HIGHLY recommend the following sources for running advice:

Daniels' Running Formula by Jack Daniels
Explosive Running by Michael Yessis
http://www.coachgordo.com/.../config.pl?read=6944 - This link to Gordo's site has a great thread on running technique.
http://www.posetech.com/default.html - This is the Pose website.

We've had this discussion here before and there are pretty much two schools of thought: Yes, you can change your technique and improve your running ability, and No, you can't (or shouldn't) mess with your technique, only running more and running faster will improve your running ability. I have no great running experience in my past (I'm also a converted baseball player: 2B and SS), but I changed my stride last year to a forefoot strike with high cadence (85-90 rpm) and have seen great results. I can't quantify the speed increase because I never ran a race before I changed my form (last year was my first in triathlon), but I train faster at less effort (I do my long runs, 10-12 miles, at 7:15 pace and don't go out of zone 2). The biggest benefit, IMHO, is that I have rid myself of the nagging injuries that come from heel-striking, i.e. no more plantar fascitis or hip pain after runs. I am able to run in lightweight trainers for all my runs and my legs don't feel like they've been through the blender at the end. Again, it's not scientific, but it works for me. YMMV.

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Dave in WI
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"What you once were isn't what you want to be anymore" - Wilco

I run like a swimmer. I have been doing a lot of research into what is a good technique for running. It is either heel strike or forefoot strike. This Pose Technique looks interesting, but I want to know, what are all you guys doing? Training, 10k, IM? Is the Pose Technique something I should be attempting? I can swim and ride 'til the cows come home but running has always been the baine of my existance. I will do almost anything to be able to run like I have been running all my life and so that I look like I know what I am doing. Is there anyone who can help?

"How important are running mechanics to speed?" Not nearly as important as bike mechanics!

Mid or fore foot strike is what is the "best technique" combined with a turnover in excess of 90...........



Check out Yessis Explosive running

than one way to skin this particular cat but if you are bored go rent the HGS video at Blockbuster,cant remember what it's called and watch how he runs, if you can get hold of other elite races and see the technique used thats always good as well.

Being a masochist I have Chicago and London for the last 2 years on tape and I actually was unable to count how fast Nderaba's turnover was at one point, well in excess of 110 towards the end of the race

   Running technique is important and can make a real difference in your ability, both in performance and long-term injury prevention. Simply running more or faster is not the best answer to improving your running. Locking into either, especially if you have serious form issues like a hard heel strike, will guarantee you end up with long term injuries. Running technique is a dirty word in many circles. You'll often hear "just go to the track," or "You need longer runs/more mileage." Unlike swimming where poor form usually just means you are just practicing going slow, poor running form leads to injuries, sometimes nagging, sometimes catastrophic.

My old cross country coach used to use two cues and a drill to help us learn proper technique. He said "don't break the egg shells," and "don't run so long in one place." He would drive those points home using hill repeats on a steep hill near our school. If you think about what those cues are telling you, they are in line with all the best form coaching out there today. They are saying you have to run lightly, meaning NO HEEL STRIKING!, and run with a quick, light cadence. Minimize the time your feet contact the ground. To get those right, you have to mid or forefoot strike and use high cadence. To help the pigeon toed and heel strikers understand what he was looking for he would take us to a local hill about 300 meters long and fairly steep, about 8% grade. You'll find it is impossible to run comfortably uphill on that sort of grade with a heel strike. You'll also note that your cadence needs to be quick to minimize "powering" up the grade. The other benefit is that it will get rid of side to side motion in your running. I've rarely seen anyone swinging elbows or hips side to side while trying to head uphill.

Its not difficult to run correctly. It takes time, discipline, and focus. You'll run slower at first, especially if you are a heavy heel striker, but as your calves become stronger and you adapt to running on the front half of your foot, you'll speed up. Your cadence will naturally pick up, but you still need to do high cadence drills, preferably uphill. The biggest payoff is in injury prevention.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the helpful advice everyone. I tried the POSE method on my run today. OUCH! My calves are really sore and I didn't go very fast. There were a few times during the 5.5 miles where I actually felt good, like I was much lighter on my feet. I realize now I have been running too upright and landing with my feet slightly in front. I had to really concentrate to lean forward a little, land on the ball of the foot and not let the heel touch. I haven't had a problem with my arm swing and so that isn't something I'll need to work on.

I can see where this is going to take a few weeks to get accustomed to. Fortunately tomorrow is my day off and this week's long run is only 8 miles on Saturday. I still have a little over 2 months until my marathon and hopefully I'll be able to master this enough to make a difference by then.

A running buddy of mine is working with a coach and he posed a similar question to him. Here's the coaches response:

The basic assumption that form can improve running is sound. The thing is the fitness aspect of distance running is so great that the available time needed to improve form will result in better performances if spent on training the cardio systems instead. Now if you're a youngster and just starting out, then you'd be best served by learning proper form to start with. Also if you were at the height of your fitness, meaning you spent the last 10 years developing as much aerobic fitness you possibly could, developed your VO2max, LT and everything else, then it would make sense to focus some available time on form to squeeze out an additional % point. Guys who've been at this a relatively short period of time have many areas of just plain working out that can provide greater benefits to their race times than can the same time spent on form.

Also, he mentioned that the strides, 200s, 400s and hill repeats that they're doing also help to improve form.

Zeke

Zeke, My experience bears out the truthfulness in part of your post:



However, that is why I recommend long term views of training. Making form adjustments does take a lot of time. It may affect one's race schedule, particularly if the athlete's target race is fairly close at hand. In that case, I recommend evaluating priorities. To my mind, long term performance, fitness and injury prevention are worth more than necessarily accomplishing performance goals in the short term. If, for instance, my A race were in May this year, and my coach or I thought major form changes might be in order for my running, I would seriously look at my goals for the race, realign my focus and go for the long term solution at the expense of a superior performance in May. Certainly by the same race next year, everything could be adjusted; I'd be better prepared fitness-wise; and I'd be assured that I were getting all that I could out of the running and probably have a better performance. 1 or 2 years to focus on form is not a big price to pay, especially for younger athletes, unless you are trying to qualify for the next Olympics. In that case, I'd hope your form in all three sports was close to optimum in the first place. Ironically the younger the athlete, the more they focus on going fast NOW!

Of course I'd be a little pissed at paying a couple hundred a month for a coach just to have them tell me to focus on form and probably get "slower" right now. That coach would have to be fairly convincing! ;>

At the rate I have been going I wasn't likely to make my goal time anyway so I have nothing to lose by trying to change my stride. Even if it does nothing for me this time around I should benefit in future races.

As a heel striker I can really feel it after a long run, especially in my hios. I haven't had much problems with plantar after I started stretching properly. I want to be able to do this for years and possibly this change will help prevent me from injury. It should also help me at the shorter distances in sprint and oly tris.

As for strides and intervals, I was already doing them and heel striking all the way. I've never had any running coach and nobody has pointed out to me I have been doing anything wrong. I've been wondering why I haven't really had any improvement in speed with all the time I've been putting into it. I've probably just maxed out the speed I was capable of as a heel striker.

I guess I'll know in a few months if this helps me.

When I started running, I ran like a soccer player, leaning way forward trying to power my way along, arms flying every which way, legs swinging all over the place. The more I ran, the more races I entered, the more track workouts I did, the more my stride turned into what it is today, relaxed, slightly more upright, with no extra arm and leg movement...you could film it and use it for teaching :)

Seriously, I think the best way to improve your form is to relax and let your body find it;s own natural efficient mode of running, only when something is particularly bad should you concentrate on it alone and try to isolate it.

tommy

I started running about 4 years ago always with the intent of doing tris.( I am now 44 and spent 20 years doing little). I always thought running would be my best event, I couldn't swim 1 length and hadn't been on a bike since I was 16. When I was in high school I was one of the top sprinters in the province. So you can see why I thought that. Well I was completely wrong, running is my worst event. It is also the thing I have trained the most all to no avail. I have read all the books tried hills, strides, intervals, tempos, lsd, all to no avail. I always thought my mechanics were a little off but I kept hearing strides, short intervals, hills would help. Finaly I filmed myself and I was taken back at what I discovered. First I was a harsh heel striker(I would have bet I wasn't) and I barely bent my knees.I ordered the POSE video and spent a month with really sore calves and couldn't go 4 miles without stopping. Thelast 6 weeks I have been making small gains I have been doing only slow aerobic runs and drills and still struggle with alot of the mechanics and I thinks that overall I am slightly faster, I am testing on Sunday. Overall I still have a long way too go but I think I am going in the right direction. I had forgatten how to run and POSE has helped me get it back.

Joe

"It is also the thing I have trained the most all to no avail. I have read all the books tried hills, strides, intervals, tempos, lsd, all to no avail. I always thought my mechanics were a little off but I kept hearing strides, short intervals, hills would help."

Same here. I've been doing things that supposedly would help me go faster and getting nowhere. Running with improper form has to be a limiting factor. Just running more or harder doesn't cure it or at least not for me.

I haven't bought the video. I just used the description from the website. After just one day my calves are extremely sore. I figure it will take a few weeks to get past the pain. I'm hopeful that this will eventually help me run faster but even if it doesn't it may help prevent injury.

It took me about 3-4 months to really get past the calf soreness, but, as I said previously, it has been so worth it!

Keep the faith and focus on the long term gains. As you mentioned, the injury prevention is the greatest benefit; the speed is just a bonus.

(BTW, I didn't buy the POSE video either, just used the descriptions from their site and the other resources I posted earlier. In hindsight, buying the video might have sped up my progress a bit, in that it would have been helpful to actually SEE the method in action. I'm still considering buying it, in fact.)

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Dave in WI
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"What you once were isn't what you want to be anymore" - Wilco

I tried a while without the video and then I finally bought it. Although my progress has been slow I wouldn't want to tackle it without the video. Mainly for the drills. I find the drills help quite a bit. I imagine his book would be just as good. Also in the video you pick up some of the small stuff that seem to make a big difference.

Joe

< How important are running mechanics to speed? >
brider has it right IMO - the speed determines the mechanics, not vice versa. The POSE methodology asserts that all runners, irrespective of speed or distance, should run the same way: which is egregious nonsense. Look at Tim Montgomery running 100m and Haile Gebreselassie running 10 000m and see if their technique is the same - I don't think so. For distance running, individual biomechanics determine what is the most efficient technique, and consequently what will be fastest. The situation is different for sprinters, but there aren't any sprinters in triathlons.

The reason why technique is so important in swimming is because of hydrodynamics - there is only one efficient way of getting through the water, and it has to be learnt, since it is not instinctive. Similarly, but to a lesser extent, bike position and technique is important because of air resistance (a subset of fluid dynamics, interestingly enough). Neither of these applies to running. There are no studies showing any causal relation between technique and speed in distance running, nor indeed even any good anecdotal evidence. About the most that can be said is that a higher cadence (90 plus footstrikes/min) seems to be helpful.

To get faster, periodize. First do the base training that will enable you to do the speed work. Then do speed work - intervals, hills, time trials, short races. Local 5k races are cheap, and are an excellent way to motivate oneself to run fast. The drills brider mentioned will likely be helpful for folks who don't have a running background. Adding a few strides into most every workout, even in base, just to get the feel of speed, is also a good idea. When too tired or injured from the speed work, return to base. Repeat for several years..

Don't try to do speedwork before your first marathon, because it's extremely unlikely that speed will be the limiter. Far more likely is that your metabolism will be unable to cope with the energy demands of the marathon, producing the effect known to runners as 'the wall' and to cyclists as 'bonking' (which is amusing if you happen to be English ;-). Long slow runs are the key to avoiding this effect, and should be the priority.

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

I totally agree with Doug (except for the last sentence because I have no idea what it means).

I would think you would be better off focusing solely on running for a year and building your mileage (put swimming and biking on the back burner), than you would by trying to be a triathlete, running 15-20 mpw and worrying about your form.

I've been running for 20+ years and I don't know any runners that worry about their form. The fastest runners I know are the people that are running the most weekly mileage on a consistant basis.

Zeke

Thanks to all the runners out there with their advice. It is one thing to "build the base" with heaps of k's, but it is another thing to build the base with the right technique. If the best runners you know are the ones who put in a lot of miles, then they also might be the ones who have a good techique. They probably enjoy running because their style is so efficient. Me, on the otherhand, do not enjoy running. Why? Because it takes a lot of effort. I can swim and ride all day. But running is a totally different story. I am now on the road to hopefully a more efficient running style as well as a my first Ironman at Forster next year. I have bought the Pose DVD and can't wait for it to turn up. I will let you all know how it goes. Seems that the general conscensus is that the Pose method is the right one to follow. I compared some photos from a triathlon a couple of weeks ago. I compared my running style to Greg Bennett and a couple of the other top guys. They do it well. I look terrible. You never know how bad your running is until you see yourself in a photo or video and compare it to the best.

Ugggghhhhh......

Let the journey continue and the adventure begin.