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Road bike paceline riding
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Just want to check I'm not doing something wrong here. Riding in a rotating paceline, after you finish a pull and drop to the back, is there always a hard effort to slide in at the back of the line without falling away? I find that linking on at the back seems to take as hard an effort as pulling at the front. Is there a technique here, or do you always need to accelerate hard to stay with the group?
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [bazilbrush] [ In reply to ]
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bazilbrush wrote:
Just want to check I'm not doing something wrong here. Riding in a rotating paceline, after you finish a pull and drop to the back, is there always a hard effort to slide in at the back of the line without falling away? I find that linking on at the back seems to take as hard an effort as pulling at the front. Is there a technique here, or do you always need to accelerate hard to stay with the group?


sometimes, it's required. For instance, in TTTs. After one takes a pull, one has to give one last effort to hitch a ride on the caboose, before being able to drop the intensity significantly.

To lessen the acceleration you need to do to latch back, you want to make sure not to let up too much on the drift backwards
Last edited by: echappist: Jun 10, 19 18:48
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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OK, thanks. So there is always some acceleration required, but I can reduce it by not easing up quite so much? I was kinda hoping that the draft effect would negate the need for acceleration, but that doesn't seem to be working for me!
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [bazilbrush] [ In reply to ]
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yeah, its a tough one - you finally pull off the front after a few seconds that felt like eternity and then have to summon up the power to latch back on... a few tips:
1. know the wheel to follow through so you can move across as soon as the wheel is clear - a helpful paceline the last rider will call out "last" as they go by but often they have no breath to spare and/or its getting too competitive to be helpful. it won't always be the same guy as last time as someone might have skipped a turn or dropped off. people not rotating should make their intentions clear but often don't
2. find the balance between easing off on the way back to get a breather and maintaining speed so as not to have to accelerate as much - this depends on the length of the line
3. be mentally prepared for the effort - a paceline is not as much about surge and recover as you might think - you have to be prepared for working hard most of the time

an effective paceline is a beautiful thing to be part of
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [bazilbrush] [ In reply to ]
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bazilbrush wrote:
OK, thanks. So there is always some acceleration required, but I can reduce it by not easing up quite so much? I was kinda hoping that the draft effect would negate the need for acceleration, but that doesn't seem to be working for me!

Yeah, it should be a slow drift backward, and mentally you don't want to consider your pull over until you're back in line.
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [bazilbrush] [ In reply to ]
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There is some acceleration effort that is needed, especially if the group is moving along at a good clip. If the group is just at a casual pace, it generally doesn't take much effort to slot back in.

Just by pure math, if the group is rolling along at a constant 25 mph, and you're dropping to the back, you are thus going slower than 25 mph. Lets call it 23.5 mph. In order for you to latch onto the back, you need to accelerate from 23.5 mph back up to 25 mph. Folding into the draft should relieve some of this effort though...so in theory, it shouldn't take a huge spike. But the faster the group is going, the bigger the spike.

Some things that could help...
1. As you're slowing down to move to the back, once you get near the last rider, start accelerating up to speed. So in the example above, try to get it so when you're at the back, you have already smoothly accelerated back up to 24.7 mph...so there isn't that much of a difference to get slotted back right into the sweet spot of the draft. A common mistake is that you drop back at 23.5 mph, and only realize you need to accelerate after the last rider's rear wheel has cleared your front wheel. By then, you not only have to accelerate 1.5 mph to match the group speed, but a gap is opening up...so you technically have to accelerate up to 26 mph or so for a short time to close that gap.

2. Don't take such a hard or long pull at the front. Part of doing a smart pull at the front is to leave yourself enough energy to fall to the back and slot back in without putting yourself on the edge. If you pull off the front when you're completely blown expecting to be able to soft pedal your way to the back of the group of a fast moving group, you did it wrong.

3. Make sure that the next guy who takes a turn at the front isn't accelerating the group while the person just coming off the front is trying to get back on. This is a common problem with new riders to hard pacelines. The group is going at 25 mph, and when the new guy gets to the front, he suddenly gets excited, clicks a gear or two harder, and jacks it up to 27-28 mph. Which means the guy who just pulled off the front expecting to drift back at 23.5-24.5 mph now suddenly needs to accelerate to 27-8 mph just to latch back on. If a gap opens as exampled in #1, then they have to accelerate up to 29+ mph for a short period to close the gap. This will usually get you some WTF looks if you you're the guy jacking up the pace for no reason because it is seen as a dick move to the guy trying to get back on after he did his turn. If you do want to increase the pace of the group, it is common courtesy to at least wait until you know the guy who just got off the front is already at the back of the line and comfortably in the draft, and then increase the pace very gradually so everyone can smoothly react without gaps forming.

4. Know your role in the paceline. The beauty of a group ride is it allows people of different abilities to ride together. But it only works if everyone knows their role. In a perfect world, everyone is the same fitness ability, weight, and aero profile, so everyone can take an equal pull. But that's never the case. So if your group wants to ride at 25 mph for a stretch, but you can only pull at 23 mph...then you need to stay in the back. Because what will happen is that you'll wear yourself out at 23 mph, everyone else behind you is soft pedaling and getting antsy. Then when you pull off and the next guy comes through, (see #3 above) the pace is going to naturally pick back up and you're going to have a hard time latching back on. Or if everyone is taking 90 second pulls at 25 mph, but you can only hold 25 mph comfortably for 20 seconds, then just check your ego at the door, pull off after 20 seconds and move to the back. Pulling for 20 seconds at 25 mph, then slowing down to 23 mph for the last 70 seconds...just so you can do your 90 second pull is not doing the group (or yourself) any favors.
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [bazilbrush] [ In reply to ]
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When you pull off.... soft pedal and let the group pass you. If you know how many is in your group, count heads as bikes pass you. When you get a couple people from the back, start rolling on some speed, when the last bike pulls forward, merge in.

If you wait til the last bike, you will have to lay down the power to catch him!
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [bazilbrush] [ In reply to ]
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bazilbrush wrote:
Just want to check I'm not doing something wrong here. Riding in a rotating paceline, after you finish a pull and drop to the back, is there always a hard effort to slide in at the back of the line without falling away? I find that linking on at the back seems to take as hard an effort as pulling at the front. Is there a technique here, or do you always need to accelerate hard to stay with the group?
Yes. You do not want to burn everything you have on your pull. And do not slow down too much. Look over your shoulder for the penultimate rider and then accelerate to match pace and drop in smoothly behind the last rider.
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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I like the word "penultimate" :)
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [jharris] [ In reply to ]
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jharris wrote:
When you pull off.... soft pedal and let the group pass you. If you know how many is in your group, count heads as bikes pass you. When you get a couple people from the back, start rolling on some speed, when the last bike pulls forward, merge in.

If you wait til the last bike, you will have to lay down the power to catch him!

Also, it's a nice gesture if you're the last rider in the paceline to let the rider who just pulled and is dropping back that you are the last one.
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [pk1] [ In reply to ]
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pk1 wrote:
yeah, its a tough one - you finally pull off the front after a few seconds that felt like eternity and then have to summon up the power to latch back on... a few tips:
1. it won't always be the same guy as last time as someone might have skipped a turn or dropped off. people not rotating should make their intentions clear but often don't

I'm not familiar with paceline procedure. How would this work? I thought the whole point of a paceline was for each person to work through and take a pull.

Strava
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [gmh39] [ In reply to ]
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Where it will suck is a cross-head wind. You're on the outside facing the cross wind so get nothing on the way back and latching back on. You're golden if the cross-head wind is the other direction from the rotation, making it easy.

But yes, this is the "effect" that often will drop riders in a real race after a failed attack. You redline it to get away, lose steam, the group catches you with a speed differential and you don't have the energy to accelerate to latch on. And it doesn't help the group will likely accel as they pass by to make sure you don't make it.
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [bazilbrush] [ In reply to ]
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You've gotten some good tips. I'll just add a couple things:

* Ideally what you have is two LINES of riders, one sliding forward relative to the other. As soon as the front rider is clear, he/she slides over to the slower line and starts drifting back with that line. As soon as the back rider is clear, he/she slides over into the faster line.
* If you don't have enough riders in the paceline to do this, then you have to take longer pulls and you'll be drifting back alone. Your rest break doesn't start as soon as you pull off the front -- it starts once you're back in the line at the caboose.

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Re: Road bike paceline riding [gmh39] [ In reply to ]
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gmh39 wrote:
pk1 wrote:
yeah, its a tough one - you finally pull off the front after a few seconds that felt like eternity and then have to summon up the power to latch back on... a few tips:
1. it won't always be the same guy as last time as someone might have skipped a turn or dropped off. people not rotating should make their intentions clear but often don't


I'm not familiar with paceline procedure. How would this work? I thought the whole point of a paceline was for each person to work through and take a pull.

It works best if everyone pulls through, and they just vary the duration of their pull based on their fitness level. But in some cases, there are riders in the group that simply cannot take a pull without slowing the group down.

So if we assume that the lead rider is pulling off to the left of the paceline, then the last rider who wants to skip a turn at the front should wait for the rider who is dropping back to get even with the rider who is 2 spots in front of him. At that point, the last rider should move left essentially moving into the draft of the rider dropping back. What this does is creates a clear message to the rider dropping back of your intentions ahead of time to skip a turn because you're leaving a space open at the back of the line. So as the rider dropping back (who is now in front of the rider skipping a pull) moves right to the back of the line, the rider skipping the turn moves right with him. It is also courtesy to maybe say something like "come on in please" to confirm that you want the rider to slot back into the line in front of you.

If this is done correctly, then it's almost as if the last rider who's skipping a turn isn't even there in terms of disrupting the flow of the paceline in front of them. As mentioned above, making your intentions clear and ahead of time is crucial to keeping the flow going. The worst thing you can do is wait till the very last minute to open up a gap in front of you when the rider pulling off the front is assuming they are supposed to slot behind you.
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
Where it will suck is a cross-head wind. You're on the outside facing the cross wind so get nothing on the way back and latching back on. You're golden if the cross-head wind is the other direction from the rotation, making it easy.

But yes, this is the "effect" that often will drop riders in a real race after a failed attack. You redline it to get away, lose steam, the group catches you with a speed differential and you don't have the energy to accelerate to latch on. And it doesn't help the group will likely accel as they pass by to make sure you don't make it.

lack of better word, the group is doing it wrong if the rider pulling off gets shunted onto the windward side (as opposed to the leeward side) after a pull
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [bazilbrush] [ In reply to ]
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A couple of things that may help you from my experience: As said by some others just ease off the throttle less as you are pulling off the front. That way your acceleration is not as big when it is time to latch onto the back of the paceline. If it is a true circulating paceline with short pulls get in the draft of the person pulling of the front as you are drifting backwards to save even more energy. If the pulls are longer and don't allow for this stay as adjacent to the paceline as possible. Like right next to them. The closer you are to the other riders when drifting backwards the more draft you'll be able to maintain and the less acceleration needed once you are at the back. I try to stay close enough in this scenario so that if I stuck my elbow out just a bit I would be able to touch the other riders hips. Another big thing here is to glance back to see where the tail of the paceline is so that you can start picking up your speed before you actually reach the back of the paceline. Stop starting your acceleration once you're already at the back and yo-yoing to get back on. This may not be possible in a short pull circular paceline. All of this comes with practice and becoming comfortable being very close to other riders weather you know them really well or not (this can be the case in road racing sometimes, but you do learn by racing more with them). My two cents on the subject.


So scared of breaking it that you won't let it bend.
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
Where it will suck is a cross-head wind. You're on the outside facing the cross wind so get nothing on the way back and latching back on. You're golden if the cross-head wind is the other direction from the rotation, making it easy.

But yes, this is the "effect" that often will drop riders in a real race after a failed attack. You redline it to get away, lose steam, the group catches you with a speed differential and you don't have the energy to accelerate to latch on. And it doesn't help the group will likely accel as they pass by to make sure you don't make it.


lack of better word, the group is doing it wrong if the rider pulling off gets shunted onto the windward side (as opposed to the leeward side) after a pull

False. You should always pull off into the wind when you're done with your pull due to the echelon resulting from the side wind. You need to factor this into your effort when pulling, save something for the extra minute you'll need to get back on.
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
You're golden if the cross-head wind is the other direction from the rotation, making it easy.
.


In a rotating paceline this should never be the case. The rider pulling off the front should always be pulling off into the side the wind is coming from. You don't want to be the one pulling off on the wrong side of the echelon and starting upsetting people. Pulling off away from the wind direction is a good way to clip the front wheel of the rider behind too.
Last edited by: GingerAvenger: Jun 11, 19 12:28
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [GingerAvenger] [ In reply to ]
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I know of rides that rotate the same way every ride regardless of the wind/conditions.

Mainly due to ease of rules to follow and consistency (rotates the same way every time).

That may not be right, but I know of many rides that stick to the same script.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
echappist wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
Where it will suck is a cross-head wind. You're on the outside facing the cross wind so get nothing on the way back and latching back on. You're golden if the cross-head wind is the other direction from the rotation, making it easy.

But yes, this is the "effect" that often will drop riders in a real race after a failed attack. You redline it to get away, lose steam, the group catches you with a speed differential and you don't have the energy to accelerate to latch on. And it doesn't help the group will likely accel as they pass by to make sure you don't make it.


lack of better word, the group is doing it wrong if the rider pulling off gets shunted onto the windward side (as opposed to the leeward side) after a pull


False. You should always pull off into the wind when you're done with your pull due to the echelon resulting from the side wind. You need to factor this into your effort when pulling, save something for the extra minute you'll need to get back on.
you missed a detail; we are not talking of echelons (in which case you would be correct); we are talking pacelines in crosswinds (which, granted is kinda missing the point of drafting in crosswinds, but so it goes)

note that the OP mentioned rotating to the other side as well
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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An echelon is just a diagonal paceline.
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [GingerAvenger] [ In reply to ]
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When is an echelon done on a normal paceline group ride? I can't think of it being done most especially on "open" roads!

If your talking race situations etc, sure but most group rides simply rotate the same way almost all the time (2 person wide pacelines).

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jun 11, 19 12:47
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I know of rides that rotate the same way every ride regardless of the wind/conditions.

Mainly due to ease of rules to follow and consistency (rotates the same way every time).

That may not be right, but I know of many rides that stick to the same script.

For practical purposes on the roads I ride/train on with groups, the decision on which way to pull off is more determined by practicality and safety than by wind direction.

If you can ride on closed roads, or roads where you can easily take a full lane without disrupting traffic, then you're free to do more advanced pacelining or echeloning. But that's usually not the case.
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [pk1] [ In reply to ]
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3. be mentally prepared for the effort - a paceline is not as much about surge and recover as you might think - you have to be prepared for working hard most of the time


an effective paceline is a beautiful thing to be part of





Key.

Many triathletes new to road riding in groups and organized pace lines, often think that when you are drafting that it's a bit a laugher in the group - like I barely have to work! Of course this is all relative to the actual speed and intensity that the group is moving along at - it very well good be a laugher, but if it's more "on", it usually comes as a bit of a surprise to realize how much work you have to do.


Part of this is doing too much work and spending too much time on the front - if you are completely gassed, even that little micro accelaterion needed to latch on to the back might be too much for you. Sometimes it's best to just roll through at the front spending at most 15 - 20 seconds there. Or skipping out on a few rotations through and "waiting" at that back. Of course all of this needs to be communicated with your fellow riders in the group - so people know what's going on.


Then "on wheels" it's important to try and stay as calm mentally and physically as you can. Make sure you are in a good gear, and an RPM that you are most efficient at. Think calm thoughts, breath deep and easy until it becomes your turn on the front again.


To the last point, indeed it is. When it's right, when the efforts of the group are unified, with not too wide a range in fitness and experiences, and everyone is doing their parts, relative too their strengths, it is a beautiful thing - you can cover so much more ground faster, than if you were on your own.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Road bike paceline riding [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
Where it will suck is a cross-head wind. You're on the outside facing the cross wind so get nothing on the way back and latching back on. You're golden if the cross-head wind is the other direction from the rotation, making it easy.

But yes, this is the "effect" that often will drop riders in a real race after a failed attack. You redline it to get away, lose steam, the group catches you with a speed differential and you don't have the energy to accelerate to latch on. And it doesn't help the group will likely accel as they pass by to make sure you don't make it.


lack of better word, the group is doing it wrong if the rider pulling off gets shunted onto the windward side (as opposed to the leeward side) after a pull

What about doubles?

Also, in a race you're going to get guttered and not get on the last person's wheel if you go to the easy side. That easy side might stretch all the way to the white line or the yellow line in the center. The hard side won't, and you'll be back on.

Right?
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