Thanks. I'm not NEW, but I'm not a PRO. I am just starting my second real season of triathlon after attempting an iron with about a month of training as my first real tri.

I don't really care. It's apparent to me these guys may do it for a living but they either can't communicate or don't understand and are mostly interested in just putting me down. I specifically say I've done well in road races over the last year in response to him suggesting I suck badly, and then he digs up my race results from 2004 do try to demonstrate otherwise.

Are you telling me these guys are REALLY the best of slowtwitch?

BTW - I think the price of admission to this roast is ordering a pair of Newtons.

It's all good man.

I can't speak for Francois, he's forgotten more about exphys than I've ever known, but what I was meaning is that your form can't be that good if you're running that slow. There's nothing "wrong" with that - you're just a beginner/overweight/whatever. I'll bet when you look at your slow pace compared to your hard pace, they're vastly different. You're not "efficient" in the running department. With more & more miles you'll start converting energy better and the time will come down. Newtons or not.


Or not, hell, it's all good.

This discussion probably stems from people having a different definition of what these zones are.

Not to derail the bickering for too long, but count me among the confused regarding Z2. My understanding was that it is an easy run pace (conversation pace) designated for recovery and LSD's. Z3 is slightly harder (more focused; conversation possible but not desirable), but sub-tempo (Z4). Z5(+) is short, hard interval effort.

It seems there may be two entirely different methods of determining these zones. Anyone care to clarify?

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Thanks.

It's come down from about 10 when I started and it continues to decrease.

But these guys - their clinical definition of Z2 is NOT the same as what mine is - at least based on Johnyyo's explanation. I'm under the Joe Friel training cartel. I can't answer for what they are doing or how they lab test their zone 2.

I'm going to take a guess here that most of these guys didn't actually get on a treadmill and strap a mask on their face to determine their zones and might instead have used some other method.

Your definitions are about dead on with what I have heard except the Z1 is the recovery pace. Z4 is your 10k-10m pace, etc.

Not making an argument here at all that this is the best way to train, it's just the method I bought into because, well, you have to believe in something and the science looks to be behind it.

Freil's zones are the ones I was thinking of as well.

http://www.cruciblefitness.com/...s/training-zones.htm

edit: I hit Z1 halfway through my morning coffee. It doesn't exist as a training zone in my world.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Bingo. I think Sally Edwards originated them.

For once I hafta say it - Paulo is the smartest man on this entire board.

'I am done with you.' - Paulo

If only the rest of us had this level of wisdom and insight.


But now that I've jumped in - how exactly did you determine what *your* zone 2 is?
(because if you think it's really easy, then you're probably not doing it right)
Did you do some sort of time trial or test protocol to estimate your LTHR, and then base your zones off of that result? And then verify it thru training and racing?

For me (and I used Friel-esque HR zones in training too), Z2 is steady, and requires some concentration to keep the pace. I could talk, but it's not casual. I would definitely NOT call it easy.
My Z2 pace is probably :05-:25 seconds / mile slower than what Daniels would call M pace (which I've always thought correlates pretty closely to Z3)

Longer Z2 runs of up to 2-2.5 hrs are pretty tough, and I feel somewhat tired for a few hours afterwards.
My Z2 hr zone is 145-155 (assuming my estimated LTHR of 170 is accurate)
I run 6:30-6:50 / mile pace for my Z2 runs typically, depending on duration and terrain.

PS- IF your VO2max really is 64, and you run 8:10 z2 miles, then either:
A - You suck
B - You have lousy form
C - You are lying or just very confused
D - All of the above

Plug a V.Dot of 64 into this
http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm
and see what sorta paces an efficient runner w/ that VO2 max would be running.


I'll let you continue to argue with the professional athletes again now.
Have fun!

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float , hammer , and jog

zn2 would best be described as "moderate" according to Friel, which is what jonnyo is saying.

Also, note that your zones may have changed, or you may not have gotten an accurate test.

http://www.martygaal.com/words/zones.html

no .... i didnt get on a threadmill to mesure my zone. I usualy call zone 2 the pace that the bear and cougar in canada can easily chase me..... z3 i can out run the bear but the cougar still can catch me and z4 is the pace get very annoying for the cougar and he get so piss that he kick the shit out of me when he finaly catch me!


more seriously.... i guess you guys z2 definition is all good. IT become a lot harder to exercice at zone 2 as your training load(hours) goes up.... so if you train 10h in our week.... most likely z2 will feel easy

as you get in 20h-30h-35h of training....z2 isnt as easy anymore as you carrie a lot of fatigue....it required more focus.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

I was hooked up to one of those devices while running on a treadmill to determine my zones and VO2 Max based on what kind of energy I was burning as demonstrated through my ventilations.

And you are not 'Frielesque' if you do not call Z2 'easy.'

It seems you used a website to determine your zones because you are using some huristic percentage of what your LTHR is which you also determined from a less than accurate standpoint. My Zone 4 is 162-169.

In other words, I know your purpose here was to rip on me, but you don't know what you are talking about.

See, this is the problem. Folks have no clue what their own Z2 effort is. Really. The best example is a world amateur champ who specifically told me when that person actually got tested and started training, their Z2 pace was 8:00. This is a person who competes at olympic distance and finishes around 2:05 (and is female).

If you didn't have a mask on your face to determine Z2 and your coaching businesses doesn't operate around putting masks on people's faces, then that is not Zone 2.

Let me ask you though - have you actually been tested and used those determined HRs to run in Z2?

I stress that because the BIG THING that I and everyone else who has this test is told - and the BIG THING that everyone who tries this experiences, is HOW SLOW Z2 FEELS.

Paulo, Paulo wherefore art thou Paulo.

[reply]

PS- IF your VO2max really is 64, and you run 8:10 z2 miles, then either:
A - You suck
B - You have lousy form
C - You are lying or just very confused
D - All of the above

I'll let you continue to argue with the professional athletes again now.
Have fun! [/reply]

A few more options

E - His VO2Max was most likely miscalculated

F - He is 100% clueless

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Jorge Martinez
Head Coach - Sports Science
E3 Training Solutions, LLC
@CoachJorgeM

Man, I can't stand it anymore! This is great!

You run 30-50 miles/week, Z2 of (now) 8 min mile with those results? And you claim to have perfect form/economy? Wow -

You need more than a new pair of shoes to help man. How about entering the Rockman half next month? I know MANY athletes there (myself included) with hard data treadmill VO2max test results (I'll bring my prinout) and we can compare to our finishing times :) Plus, you would likely get more help there for free to get faster than any place else you have obviously been.

Have a great season!

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____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Come to Eagleman and it's a deal.

The guys at newton have told me the sales slowed down in the last hour and asked me to boost up the traffic on this post. As this V02 Max/economy question has kind of slowed down, I'm initiating the following fun discussions:

1) I learned how to swim with TI and it's great.
2) PCs have made me faster on my bike and on the run.
3) .... Something about roadies and triathletes.... working on it....

<< I was hooked up to one of those devices while running on a treadmill to determine my zones and VO2 Max based on what kind of energy I was burning as demonstrated through my ventilations >>

New Leaf I'm guessing? They are crap.

I got tested on one 2 years ago. My VO2max is supposedly over 70. P'shah!!! :-p

TRAINING ZONES

Zone Name Use 1 Recovery Recovery days or between intervals. A very easy, aerobic effort. 2

Basic Endurance

Long endurance training and base building. Spending time in Zone 2 enables athletes to build durability, boost aerobic fitness and develop the proper technique. Also referred to as "Steady".
(sorry the formatting got screwed up on this chart)

You are right, I don't know what I'm talking about. Kona last season was actually a dream, like when J.R. got shot.

You lecturing Francios, Jonnyo et al about running is like me giving Itzeasy and Dr Tommy swim tips.

Face it, we all know that you don't know what the f you are talking about.
Sadly, you are the only one who isn't in on the joke yet.

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float , hammer , and jog

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~Jeff Good

So your saying your zone 2 pace is faster than mine? Is that suppose to be an insult?

Z2 is easy. And it is what it is if you got it tested.

LOL..... It's one thing to get Paulo to blow his lid. But rroof! That takes talent. :-)

Uh.... did you not just read your own post?

Let me quote from your post.

Aerobic endurance is built and eventually maintained by exercising at this "conversational" effort.

That means easy.

Thanks for helping me make my case here. You guys are so acerbic you don't even really care about the facts anymore do you?

Do you all work for Newton, too?

<< Aerobic endurance is built and eventually maintained by exercising at this "conversational" effort.

That means easy. >>

No, it doesn't. Or else I think Friel might have said so. Like he did for Z1.


I'd have better luck reasoning with my dog.

'I am done with you.' - ML

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float , hammer , and jog

"Conversational" doesn't mean "easy". If Friel would have meant "easy" he would have said "easy" as he did in the section that was describing Zone 1.

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~Jeff Good