Used to know the guy who publishes one of the biggest snowmobile magazines. Every year the manufacturers would loan him lots of brand new snowmobiles to test and write about. Any time you went by his place he always had 6-8 brand new snowmobiles sitting there. He even didn't own a snowmobile himself. Didn't have to because he could get any model he wanted to test.

He never said anything bad about any of them although he admitted to me which models he really liked and which he thought were crap. He told me that he didn't dare slam a particular model of snowmobile for fear that he would then lose the advertising dollars of that company.

That's the way the industry works.

Hmmmm....suspected there was a fair bit of that in the bike game.

Whats the point of writing a review then. Why not just write an article about the manufacturers who advertise in the magazine.

A logical question, as that would make better sense.

Ah, but the world tends not to follow logic...

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Where would you want to swim ?

Exactly. The problem is the fact that magazine publishing's main revenue comes from advertising. I used to buy a lot of car magazines and always noted how they mostly wrote about cars that were advertised in the magazines. They also only ever slammed cars with poor road reviews that didn't advertise in the magazines. The advertisers products always got good reviews.

You need a non biased medium like Consumer Reports or similiar.

More ad dollars = better review.
That's how car industry reviews work as well.
I believe Car and Driver to be the only car mag with any integrity left and TopGear (BBC's car show) is brutaly honest. That's it though, out of thousands of car publications (TV, print and web).
I imagine the same to be true for anything else that gets reviewed.
Few years ago, with all the Web based review sites I was really hoping we'll see more real product reviews, but after a few lawsuits seems like profesional reviewers are scared to speak they mind.

edit:
Beaten by above... oh well.

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http://www.optruth.org/

well, it's like the annual gear issues from inside tri and triathlete. it's basically a laundry list of items without a meaningful word about the product itself. god forbid someone should have an opinion other than, "MUST HAVE!" especially when the must have item is usually over $200.

is there really such a thing as a bad bike?

are not some just better than others?

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Train hard...race well.
www.jimmishler.com
"Jim, I happen to agree with you" DougStern

I'm willing to say that paired spoked wheels aren't anything special after having two pairs.

Bunnyman thinks integrated headsets are crap.

That's a start.

performance brand bikes suck. jamis mtb frames crack at the welding pt and the warranty sucks....

you mean like that bike editor for a large tri mag whose every review basically states 'stiff enough for short course, comfortable enough for you ironman distance athletes'?

Oh yeah... well put. Those gear reviews give me the shits no end - basically advertising dressed up. Rarely do they have anything more than the advertising blurb from the manufacturer.

For Example - I own numerous sets of running kit, some very good others not so good but every single one I could sugest something to make it better. EG one Asics singlet I have - great fit, great cut but they have a detailing seam that runs right over the nipple line - what runner had an input into that!? - after 10km it is like sand paper on the nipples!

Not to derail this thread, but what grounds for a lawsuit exist because of a bad review? Doesn't the company have to prove malicious intent (really, really hard to prove)?

Hmmm... I'm thinking of your question like this: Is there any road/tri bike out there (be reasonable, I'm not talking about WalMart bikes) that I would tell a friend to absolutely NOT buy even if it it fit him perfectly? The reason to urge him not to buy must have nothing to do with price, color, looks, or brand, just based on quality.

I've got one that comes to mind...thinking...

I would never tell anyone, even a really raw beginner, to but something with Sora. Piecemeal upgrades are impossible and eventually they'll either toss the whole bike or upgrade the whole groupo at once. No one should ever buy a bike with lower than 105.

The answer lies in competing interests...magazines need ads for revenue...if you think mags stay alive on circulation $ you're mistaken. So...if they need ads to stay afloat...they can't risk alienating the biggest advertisers out there by panning their products. Slowman's mag published reviews are probably as close as you're going to find in terms of truthful...but even those are carefully worded (probably with help from the 'friendly' editors) so as not to piss off advertisers. Slowman's reviews on this site are probably the best you're going to find in terms of reputable reviews that cross the lines between producer and user. You can find truthful reviews elsewhere on bike review sites...but its always a gamble whether someone's review is overly reliant on personal bias or silly axe-to-grind. And the one-off reviews are ALWAYS subject to limited exposure to the breadth of products available. Take the many "review" threads of, say, Cervelo you can read on this forum for example...when the person says "yeah...Cervelo P3 is a great bike...stiff...light...etc...etc..." its highly likely that the P3 is one of only a few bikes they've ever owned. Does this make their statement wrong? No...but it certainly means that their opinion is less informed than, say, Slowman's...or Demerly's or other current/former industry types who've owned/sold/built/ridden much larger samplings. Tom D's review of the Litespeed Blade a few years ago is one such review that was truthful, and based on a much greater understanding of the products available than you or I will ever have... Litespeed didn't want to hear that sort of stuff...but you know what...in the end the Blade was changed in ways that directly affected the issues Tom pointed out. Whether Tom's review had anything to do with that or not, I don't know...but Tom did write about those issues and certainly helped many folks like me decide against those particular evolutions of that frame.

At the end of the day, though, no one really wants to read negative stuff about their particular bike... ;-> I certainly have to try hard and keep an open mind when I read negative stuff on the Talon/Talon SL...

"No one should ever buy a bike with lower than 105."

I think that might be a little extreme. I agree that one should stay away from Sora, but given the choice between a Tiagra bike in the buyers price range and no bike at all.... I think bits of Tiagra are just fine. (I won't be riding them though! ;-) )

If Tiagra is compatible with the other 9spd stuff then fine. I just wouldn't want someone to buy a $600 bike only to realize a year later that it needs $500 worth of upgrades. Better to buy a used bike with Ultegra.

On the rare occasion, I will buy something to be the guinea pig. I admit that there was not all that good of a forum up until about 1999 (as I was very sheltered about the internet until then), but I have written a review on occasion and one ended up posted on the Slowtwitch forum.

I gambled $320 on a Renn disc then. I had paid for it myself, and furthermore, had a lot to lose at the time. $320 was cheap, cheap, cheap for a disc wheel. But it was a boatload if it was crap.

Believe me, if it would not have been any good at the time, I would have told Frank, first, and if he would not have redeemed himself, I would have shouted from the mountain tops. This was my attitude AFTER the next story.

I did get a custom-order bike from someone whom I thought I could trust, and got ripped off. He tried charging me $8000 for an $800 order (which was declined, then acted like it was my fault), which should have been my clue. This was after trying to get me to Western Union the money. I thought that if I were quiet and only pestered him, I would finally get satisfaction. But it never happened. I admit that I was a total prick when I unloaded on him, but I kept getting delay after delay during the delivery process (and Fed Ex proved that he lied about his shipment date), lame answer after lame answer, and I lost it when things were missing and/or incorrect spec. I will not say whom it is, as he is out of business and it won't help me or anyone else, anyway. I ended up ridding myself of that bike as it was a noodle.

Anyway, it should be known that when you are the one paying for it, you take a much bigger risk. Magazines do not have the budget to be objective about bikes, as bikes are supplied free for reviews and the advertisers pay their bills. It is simply unaffordable to be truthful in a magazine.

I have written highly critical reviews that I fel were well researched and, although opinionated, at least articulate in the opinions and fairly well supported.

Some have been fairly well received as constructive criticsim, others actually resulted in the bike company calling me and first, begging me to take them down, then, threatening me openly.

The fact of the matter is, the second a publication or site sells advertising they cannot be honest. We don;t sell advertsing on our site at all, and there is some benefit to that.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Cool topic - I wish more people would give specific examples



What was that QR bike, low end model a couple of years ago. Sort of a hybrid road and tri bike, a really hideous green color...

I think slowman gave that a pretty unfavorable review, and I believe it's not being offered any more. (not saying there is cause and effect)

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The only issues I ever heard with that bike are really about the geometry. So say the geometry works for someone. I don't have any reason to believe that the bike didn't ride well or was poorly made.

I think there is another issue at work here and it is pride. If you are the proud owner of POS bike which you paid a lot of money for, say $1500.00 plus. Are you gonna go spouting off to the world what a POS it is and how much of an idiot you were to buy it? Lets face it we all like to defend our posistions and purchases, it is natural to do so. And they can be justified in just about any way to make the purchase seem reasonabale. For example I own two bikes, a P3 and a Schwinn Peleton. IMO I got GREAT deals on both, the P3 was purcahsed used on EBAY for $1200 and the Schiwinn was purcahsed at a LBS new for $1,100. Since most everybody is familair with the P3 they will see that $1200 for a P3 is a pretty sweet deal. The Schwinn is a 853 steel frame, basically a Paramount without lugs, it has Dura Ace on it, but crappy wheels, Mavic CPX 21. Again IMO a great deal @$1,100.00. But here is where it gets dicey- The P3 is a 57cm 650cc bike, I am 6'0 and the frame is to long for me, I would be better off on a 55 700cc. But I still ride the bike, and I still love it and think it is the best bike on the road. So even when good bikers, you know the guys who can see a bad fit (mine isn't really that bad, but it is a bit on the big side)from a mile away come up to me and say "boy that top tube is a bit long for you" I immidiately go into defense mode expalining away why I ride the bike starting always with the whole used purcashed on EBay for $1,200.00-defending my purcahse story. Further more when a cyclist comes up and says that P3 isn't a "real" bike, only (pick your classic road bike manufacturer) is a real bike. The same thing will happen, I will start defending the bike like it is my wife or kids,becasue I don't want to take those lumps.

Now the schiwinn hangs in my garage collecting dust becasue I ride the P3. But when I was riding it from 98-2003 I could NEVER get comfortable on it. I always had lower back pain not matter what i tried, new stems, bars, seats. seat posts. For me the bike was a bad bike, I guess it was fit, but that doesn't make it a shitty bike. And you know what I still feel like I got a sweet deal on it and I still like the bike and think it is a fine ride, it just doesn't work for me. When I was riding it and the back started screaming and I had to drop out of a group ride, or couldn't ride at all, I used to get comments all the time that I should get rid of the POS Schwinn and get a "real" bike. That hurts on two levels first they are attacking Schwinn, and since I had bought it they might as well have been attacking my own last name. Secondly the bikes, make and components are in fact quite high quality (minus the wheels). Off I would go defending away my purcahse and why I ride the bike.

I guess you can sum it up like this- neither of my bikes are POS's by my standards. But they certainly might qualify as bad purcahses by me.

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I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

My cross bike is a mix of sora, Tiagra (shifters, I think) and Deore (casette and rear derailler) and works great so far. Just as well as my 105 stuff on my road bike. I bet the only difference is a little weight. I'm taking it on a lot of gravel and crappy roads this spring, so it will be interesting to see how it holds up. If it's half as durable as the Deore DX/LX on my 12-yr-old MTB, I will be happy.