i know exactly how you feel. i think we have to say goodbye to elite sport as a drugfree zone.

I agree. This is very disappointing. Although, at the moment, it's not final......I found this story on www.eurosport.com today.

"Olympic champion Tyler Hamilton was to undergo a b-test after an alleged illegal blood transfusion. The American denies any wrongdoing and a Phonak team spokesman raises issue with the new detection method used. The team has scheduled a press conference near its headquarters in Zurich this evening.

The test was carried out after his individual time trial win in Almasuffes on 11 September. Hamilton dropped out during the Xativa-Xorret de Cali stage two days later.

He showed a "mixed red blood cell count", the same anomaly found after he won his Olympic title last month, according to team spokesman Georges Lüchinger.

Under UCI rules, it's illegal for a rider to receive illicit blood transfusions, either from himself or someone else.

Lüchinger points out that there was no B-test done after the August 19 test, the first of its kind.

The same new testing method was used on the Vuelta.

"Tyler was the first person tested with the new system in Athens," he told eurosport.com. "[But] there are a few questions: normally, if a person is doped, they [the International Olympic Commitee] say it immediately. Why did they not say and why did they not make a b-test?"

"For us, we have to wait," Lüchinger added, repeating that Hamilton denies any blood transfusion."

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Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.

>i think we have to say goodbye to elite sport as a drugfree zone.

I said goodbye to elite sport as a drug-free zone after Seoul '88.

some people are clean. now. even in cycling. I still know some guys racing in France and they are clean (since the festina story. they weren't before)...but you definitely don't seem them at the front

To me, the last sentence of today's Velonews story is the most interesting:

"Hamilton, 33, has never tested positive for banned substances or been disciplined by the UCI during his 10-year professional career."

Give him a week to see what the follow-up tests show. He deserves it.

Amen on the one week moratorium. I don't even want to consider this as real yet. If it is, I will one of the many disappointed.

Do you have a link to some article explaining the Festina incident... I was too young to remember what happened..

What is tiring is when people jump to the conclusion that something must be true based on inital reports, before all the facts are out.

What we have so far are "reports", just like CBS had a "report" on "verifiable" documents from Bush's commander in the National Guard. A week later it was shown the docs were forgeries and Dan Rather's job is in jeopardy.

These reports originated in the European sports press, which is slightly less reliable than what a drunk sitting on the next barstool tells you. After the Phonak press conference, the cycling fed press conference, the back-up testing reports...then maybe you'll have something that's clear.

aha

>some people are clean. now.... but you definitely don't seem them at the front

I think that's the main problem; there certainly are clean athletes in all sports - they're just highly unlikely to be at the front.

>These reports originated in the European sports press, which is slightly less reliable than what a drunk sitting on the next barstool tells you.

Oh big oracle, thanks for showing me the light! I agree with you that the american sports press is ABSOLUTELY RELIABLE and always right (they are not drunk but on amphetamines).

Did you know that the Bush campain actually placed the forged copies with CBS and they fell for it? I guess this is another story from one of those drunk european sports journalists.

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adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)

I hope that this story is not true, but consider the following:

1. Tyler's best performance by far comes at age 33

2. This story by the doctor that USPS canned sayng that Tyler was one of the ones asking for PEDs.

3. Tyler is in a sport with a pretty good history of drug problems.

My gut reaction is that this story is true although I hope that it is not. Tyler's being on the same team as Lance would also make it less surprising to me if Lance were doping. I'm not saying that Lance is. I have thought that his brush with death would both explain his subsequent focus and give him a real reason not to mess with his second chance at life. This story would just make it a little less surprising if Lance were cheating.

Right...hey, FYI cyclists peak at 30-34, didja know that little fact? And that Lance's old doc is full of shit? And making him guilty by implication because he rides bikes on a level you'll never understand is just...well, wiggety-wack. Research. Read. Learn. Might as well do it because half you pussy tri fags talk about training and the other half you're learing how to set up your TiVo. Got some time to kill, CTL? Bet ya do!

Your unwavering faith in Lance and Tyler is admirable.

I really don't have the time to study the subject as I have a life, but isn't Lance the oldest Tour de France winner in decades? Didn't the Cannibal win his last Tour at 29? Didn't Lemond win all of his Tours in his 20s? Didn't Indurain win his last Tour at 30? The evidence is exclusively from the Tour, but it suggests that professional cyclists peak in their late 20s, not in the 30 - 34 AG.

Guilt by implication? Hardly, but this is just piece of evidence making it slightly more likely that Lance is doping. Lots of evidence to suggest otherwise as well. I don't know the truth, and neither do you.

[reply][#ff0000][b]Hamilton, 33, has never tested positive for banned substances[/b][/#ff0000]

That is really becoming a tired defense. Not testing positive means absolutely nothing if they don't test athletes out of competition.[/reply]




Casey,

Professional cyclists are tested year round, during the season and during the off season. You would be aware of this if you read Lance's second book or happened to remember that Jan Ullrich was disciplined for illegal drug use during the off season/while recovering from an injury during year long hiatus. The discovery of his illegal drug use was as a result of a drug test for cyclists that he did not expect to be subjected to because it was the off season and /or he was taking the year off to recover from his "injury".

I believe the off season would qualify as out of competition. This has been the standard protocol for some years now. FYI.

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Ben Cline


Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.

Quote, "Did you know that the Bush campain actually placed the forged copies with CBS and they fell for it?"




adrialin,

G. Gordon Liddy, right.

Another Dan Rather/CBS scoop?

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Ben Cline


Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.

[reply]Your unwavering faith in Lance and Tyler is admirable.

I really don't have the time to study the subject as I have a life, but isn't Lance the oldest Tour de France winner in decades? Didn't the Cannibal win his last Tour at 29? Didn't Lemond win all of his Tours in his 20s? Didn't Indurain win his last Tour at 30? The evidence is exclusively from the Tour, but it suggests that professional cyclists peak in their late 20s, not in the 30 - 34 AG.

Guilt by implication? Hardly, but this is just piece of evidence making it slightly more likely that Lance is doping. Lots of evidence to suggest otherwise as well. I don't know the truth, and neither do you.[/reply]



CTL,

Hasn't there been just some small body of scientific research to suggest that endurance athletes (predominant use of slow twitch muscle fibers) peak much later (30s-40s) than do "sprinters" who typically peak in their 20s (predominate use of fast twitch muscle fibers)?

Accusing an endurance athlete of drug use because he is hitting his peak in the age bracket that scientific research indicates is normal and expected seems a little convoluted to me.

Kind of like accusing a particular lawyer of being an ambulance chaser simply because he passed the state bar exam.

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Ben Cline


Better to aspire to Greatness and fail, than to not challenge one's self at all, and succeed.

It's always a little disturbing to get the news and the information flow after the fact is always a bit confusing. Personally, I want the guy to be clean.

Hamilton is going through the regular routine of denying everything right now as are all of his supporters, teamates and handlers. What else can he do. This is always the case wether the person is truly guilty or innocent. Hence the confusion, doubt and cynicism. I suspect some of the greatest sports dopers of all time, have possibly gotton away scott-free. Florence Giffith-Joyner comes to mind. While others have had careers halted, put on hold or wrecked by false positives. It's always an unfortunate situation.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

All I was saying is that Tyler's having remarkable performances, better than ever before, in his 30s, is one piece of evidence that fits with his taking PEDs. There could be all sorts of other explanations, like having a better coach, a better team director, improving strategy, training harder, etc etc etc. I don't know the answer, but when I look at the evidence that I have heard, including the positive doping tests, my conclusion right now is that Tyler is doping. I hope that I am wrong because I have really admired and respected him for a number of years.

As far as Lance goes, I think that just about everyone, probably including him, was doping in the 1990s. I think that he is not doping now and that he has not been since almost losing his life to cancer. But, when I hear news that one of his teammates has been caught doping, it makes me reconsider my conclusions about Lance and whether he has been doping. I have not reached a different conclusion regarding whether Lance has been doping now: I think that he has not been since coming back from cancer. But, this news does mean that I would be even less surprised if my conclusion about Lance is wrong.

We need the Oracle and his total recall here, but as my feeble memory recalls VO2Max starts dropping in men at about age 34-35. Women start dropping 4-5 years later, if my memory is accurate.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Yes, I agree with you. They probably are all (the top contenders in a tour) on PED's. That doesn't mean that they are villain humans. The problem I think is that when a guy gets caught for doping, he goes from hero to zero in a split second. Armstrong's (and the other guys) accomplishments are amazing, they are very gifted athletes indeed and it doesn't change this fact after they get caught.

They are trapped in the system : they can't say they are on drugs, but they have no choice at the moment if they want to keep up with the rest. That's why you see these guys denying that much, and look like big lyers. The truth is the system wants this.

If a rider that without being tested, and on his own decision, decides to tell everybody he dopes. What happens ? He gets a suspension, gets vilified by the press and people, gets rejected by the other riders (Armstrong being the first) for trying to clean the sport.

Now imagine that the same rider gets applause for doing this, gets a million dollar from WADA for doing it (or other incentives), then it might change things a bit. THAT will never happen tough, but what we could already do is not overreact when someone gets doped, and act as if we were waiting for this to happen anyway.

In the end, nothing will work BUT putting a lot of money into testing and fighting doping.

Hmmmm, neither has Armstrong........