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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [roady] [ In reply to ]
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I actually think it's a poor one. While I agree with your basic sentiment regarding her comments about her cadence, there's nothing wrong with her cadence. There is, OTOH, a problem with Tebow's throwing motion.

I realized that after I wrote it. I was more referring to the sentiment that critical analysis of technique is commonplace within major league sports, and it's not viewed by the players or the criticizers as a bad thing or ridiculous because of success. It just is something that *is*. That is, it's perfectly reasonable in most professional sports to ask "is this person successful because of or in spite of how they do something." And that's what I appreciated about the Tebow analogy.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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i've gotta agree with paulo. best for you to just shut up and win another 10 or 15 ironman races, in which case you can ride a wheelie the entire bike leg and it'll be the best possible technique... for you. plus, you'll get honorary degrees in engineering (in addition to the real one you already have) and ex fizz, from lemming polytech.

i need to tell you, jordan, i've lost all sorts of respect for you, because you're spending your weekend trying to help me understand best practices. how dare you.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Frank, can you please enlighten me as to one simple fact - why does a lower HR mean a given cadence is more "efficient"? Unfortunately, you're entire argument (since that's all it is) is based off a misconception. Not really surprising...

Everything else being the same, HR correlates pretty well with oxgen consumption. I look forward to hearing from you how this is a misconception.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I actually think it's a poor one. While I agree with your basic sentiment regarding her comments about her cadence, there's nothing wrong with her cadence. There is, OTOH, a problem with Tebow's throwing motion.


I realized that after I wrote it. I was more referring to the sentiment that critical analysis of technique is commonplace within major league sports, and it's not viewed by the players or the criticizers as a bad thing or ridiculous because of success. It just is something that *is*. That is, it's perfectly reasonable in most professional sports to ask "is this person successful because of or in spite of how they do something." And that's what I appreciated about the Tebow analogy.

I totally understood your intent, but you know me--I can't help myself sometimes. Sorry, you've been raked over the coals enough...

When I think of Tebow though, two words come to mind: Byron Leftwitch. I'm seeing a similar career path unless he makes some changes.
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Frank,

I think you're getting carried away on this one. When he quoted the specific paragraph, it is clear thgat he is speaking to the Aerobar extensions and not her cadence as being "wrong".

Was he right in putting the first post the way he did? No, as I said in an earlier post, had he not clarified, he would have seemed like a complete Dick for that post.

Given the clarification, I, and most others as he's pointed out, see where is argument is coming from. You seem to want to continue to push the argument well past the point that it should go, which is strange.

That said, your point regarding her pedalling at the cadence that optimizes her power output in a given situation, while minimizing the HR at that power output is great. With that though, wouldn't she need to do significant training / testing with both a HR monitor, cadence sensor and PM? I have not seen much questioning of Jordan's assertion that she, and many other of Brett's athlete's, use the aforementioned equipment as part of their training? Also, wouldn't she specifically need to know her optimal cadence to produce X power while minimizing her heart rate under the specific conditions of Kona - i.e. Heat, course, etc. When you think it through, doesn't it sound like you are starting to push for her being even more scientific and into the numbers than Jordan was accused of being into earlier? Also, doesn't that fly in the face of your saying she does it off of "feel" earlier?

Just saying, she is either (1) going about it very scientifically and none of us are aware of it, (2) simply doing what her coach has told her and she therefore believes, or a combination thereof? It can't be one or the other depending on which point of Jordan's hypothesis you are arguing against.

-----------------------------------------------------------
"Chrissie wins because she trains really f'ing hard and races really f'ing hard and was blessed with a huge f'ing motor" Jordan Rapp
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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This just in: Powercranks signs Jordan Rapp to sponsorship agreement.


Normally I scroll past any post by frank day and roadhouse among others, but this thread in like a car accident...... wow. keep up the good work jordan!

_________________________________________________
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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well i gotta say Big Rapp that you instantly gained much more respect than i had previously thought i had had for you when you wrote this:

Ultimately, I suppose I care about answering the question of "why" more than I care about not stepping on people's toes. I do my best to walk the line, but if I have to choose between critical thinking and playing nice, I will choose critical thinking. A better debater than I might say that's never a choice you have to make, but I guess I lack that eloquence. That's just who I am. I do not ask anyone to like or not like me as a result. I'd like to think respect is not influenced by something like that, but if your definition is different, then I respect your right to have it be so. I hope I can re-earn your respect, just because respect is a currency that is in relatively short supply these days, and I do value it, going both ways.

i'm still not quite sure of what you meant concerning Chrissie and Sutton because it came out almost sexist as if Chrissie couldn't think for herself but i doubt that that is what you meant, now i can see that. she's refreshing in her ability and her pride to just do it and that's what i like about those types of athletes, they're refreshing and invigorating in their overall simplicity. anywho, it's safe to say that you are much, much better at critical thinking (light years ahead of myself) than most and in my eyes you , in the most recent of your posts, easily proved your place at the top of this forum. cool. and i'll leave the scientific stuff to you all, i'll just try and dominate as best i can without it because that is just me, not that bright and yet not that dumb but with a ton of heart...eh.

in another time i hope i can have some better intended arguments for you to help me figure out.

It's not about the bike, it's just along for the ride.
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Everything else being the same, HR correlates pretty well with oxgen consumption. I look forward to hearing from you how this is a misconception.

Maybe you can explain how oxygen consumption is a true and accurate measure of efficiency. I am well aware that this is a lost cause, given numerous power cranks threads. And, as is always the case, I would suggest that maybe you do some research that proves that you are correct rather than telling me I should prove you wrong. Generally speaking, utilization of a greater percentage of Type II muscle fibers equates to a lower HR , but that's not the same as efficiency, since it's well documented that Type I fibers respirate more efficiently than type two fibers. Much of the literature that's been around actually defines efficiency by that cadence which maximizes type I fiber recruitment, since they contract the most efficiently. Now I'm not an exercise physiologist, so I am sure I am way oversimplifying things, but I would also say that it's an antiquated theory to equate HR alone and efficiency. I'd argue that BLA is also a relevant metric if you are going to examine oxygen consumption. Because what is more interesting is how the work is being distributed, which BLA will help give you insight about, though even that is not a complete measure. If you are going to use HR as a proxy for O2 consumption, then you could also potentially use BLA as a proxy for fiber type recruitment, though I am sure there are limitations to that, I just don't know enough to the physiology to accurately assess them.

As you said, numerous studies have been done to try and answer why cyclists pick a cadence that is not the most "efficient," defining efficiency according to HR, O2 consumption, or something similar. Maybe that's because that definition of "efficient" is wrong, since once you start to consider muscle fiber recruitment, then the preferred cadence and the most efficient cadence track more closely. But even fiber recruitment isn't necessarily the whole story. As an example, might it not be more appropriate to consider efficiency in terms of damage to muscle tissue, especially for something like Ironman racing? Or what about efficiency defined by most work being done by major muscle fibers with minimal recruitment of smaller stabilizer muscles?

Biologic efficiency is not at all easy to measure. The best cyclists in the world continually choose cadences that those metrics for efficiency tell them are not optimal. Yet they do not change. These are people whose livelihoods depend on winning races. If the more "efficient" cadence worked, they would choose it. The fact that as a group they do not choose it leaves two options - 1) all the best athletes in the world are wrong, which defies the law of large numbers, which is pretty compelling evidence. OR - 2) the way in which efficiency is being defined//measured is wrong, which is supported if you look at the other studies using alternative definitions of efficiency, namely fiber recruitment, since it is well documented that type I fibers are more efficient than type II fibers at contracting, which is what we really care about.

Of course, much of the literature that discusses this type of efficiency with respect to cycling also says that the most effective way to pedal is to simply hammer the downstroke of the pedal cycle and to not worry about anything else, so I can see why you might not want to read them too closely.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [roadhouse] [ In reply to ]
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in another time i hope i can have some better intended arguments for you to help me figure out.

I look forward to it.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [roadhouse] [ In reply to ]
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With the "eh" in there Roadhouse, are you Canadian?

Glad to see you flip back to on-side. Would have hoped you went there after his original clarifiaction email, but then again, you likely were playing games, as I can see you like to do.

All the Best,

Clint

-----------------------------------------------------------
"Chrissie wins because she trains really f'ing hard and races really f'ing hard and was blessed with a huge f'ing motor" Jordan Rapp
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Crmurphy] [ In reply to ]
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You know what's funny......there is another cadence thread on the front page currently, only it's regarding swimming. In that thread, any particular cadence is dependent on individual....YET on this thread, there appears to be no middle ground.......it's one way or the other.......I think it's individual, in both cases.


http://theworldthroumyeyes.tumblr.com/
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
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I try to learn from the best in any given field.

Coaching ironman? Ask Mario Huys and Brett Sutton.

Racing ironman? Ask Chrissie Wellington, Dave Scott, Marc Allen, Normann Stadler, Faris Al Sultan, Macca, ...

So when Wellington talks, the argument "it could be influenced by Brett Sutton" makes me listen even closer.
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Frank,
You said it your self. "HR correlates pretty well with oxgen consumption." The problem is correlating HR with efficiency. For most runners/cyclists, we care about max speed for a distance. They don't give medals for the lowest HR, or even the lowest O2 consumed. Its the pretty well part that is bad, we want to improve on pretty well to exactly.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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You should know better than this. In this place, the idiots always win. It's more entertaining to see them fight among themselves.

Paulo FTW!

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Crmurphy] [ In reply to ]
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With the "eh" in there Roadhouse, are you Canadian?

Glad to see you flip back to on-side. Would have hoped you went there after his original clarifiaction email, but then again, you likely were playing games, as I can see you like to do.

All the Best,

Clint


oh, how so not canuckian and yes i like to joke around...eh. ;) i think i may have missed the original clarification though but it all turned out to be good.

thanks,

Sir Preston

It's not about the bike, it's just along for the ride.
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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After this, I'm finally ready to get me some Power Cranks!


___________________________________
Cure CF, because I love my daughter.
http://www.cff.org
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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The problem is whether discussing aerobic efficiency or mechanical efficiency.

HR does correlate pretty well to oxygen consumption, but at a muscle fiber level may or may not represent efficiency. Amongst other things, does the person have more Type I or Type II muscle fibers - so efficiency becomes VERY individual.

From speaking with bike coaches, it does seem that women generate better power output at lower cadences than men do. So perhaps Brett Sutton picked up on this earlier - does anyone know if he has his male athletes also use lower cadence?
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [roady] [ In reply to ]
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When I think of Tebow though, two words come to mind: Byron Leftwitch. I'm seeing a similar career path unless he makes some changes.


______________________________________________________


That'd be one hell of a career. Making $20-$30 million (guranteed money) after the "he isnt good enough to QB in the NFL". If he follow's Byron's path, it'll mean he basically is an NFL starter for about 3-5 seasons, than becomes an journeyman "2nd string" QB. Not a bad way to make a career at all.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: bad929: Jan 3, 10 9:37
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [ShoMyOFace] [ In reply to ]
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You know what's funny......there is another cadence thread on the front page currently, only it's regarding swimming. In that thread, any particular cadence is dependent on individual....YET on this thread, there appears to be no middle ground.......it's one way or the other.......I think it's individual, in both cases.

It's definitely individual. Nobody is saying the number must be X (or at least I'm not). However, one thing to consider is that with cycling - you have gears and can choose from a variety of crank lengths, cleat mounts, etc. With swimming, the faster you turn over, the faster you will (should) go (assuming your technique doesn't falter). That same relationship doesn't hold true in cycling. That doesn't mean that there isn't a range of cadences that are probably "appropriate" (I would think optimal cadence is largely defined by muscle type), but I would guess that it's much less individual than in swimming. It's also important to remember in swimming cadence is usually defined by strokes/length. If you change it to strokes per second, the discrepancy would shrinks somewhat. I think the big comparison often made is Phelps vs Manadou(?) setting 200m free world record with Phelps at ~29s/50m and Manadou at ~50s/50m. But Manadou takes longer to get across the pool. If you watch the best cyclists - male and female - during an equivalent effort, say the 4000m pursuit (RIP), I doubt very much (but don't know for certain) if you'd see even close to the kind of variance you see in swimming (i.e., the fastest cadence being ~50 faster than the slowest competitor). I think in both cases, there is a range. I just think it's a narrower range - because of the drivetrain - than it is in swimming.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan -

What if any opinion do you have on cleat position...specifically a cleat slammed far back towards midfoot. As in opposition to ball of foot over spindle? I only ask b/c I went to the Speedplay fore/aft adjuster several months ago to get rid of nagging knee and Achilles injuries. It has worked like a charm. Just curious if I'm a 1/10,000 that it works for.....as I was chided by everyone I knew for such 'blasphemy';)

I saw the thread on 'cadence' and I was immediately interested b/c my cadence picked up automatically by using this cleat position and it 'lightened' up my foot on the upstroke....as in I'm not fighting a 'heavy' foot on the opposing side during the recovery.

Thanks for your opinion as it's one of a few I greatly value.
Last edited by: slowerthanslow: Jan 3, 10 9:42
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [slowerthanslow] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan -

What if any opinion do you have on cleat position...specifically a cleat slammed far back towards midfoot. As in opposition to ball of foot over spindle? I only ask b/c I went to the Speedplay fore/aft adjuster several months ago to get rid of nagging knee and Achilles injuries. It has worked like a charm. Just curious if I'm a 1/10,000 that it works for.....as I was chided by everyone I knew for such 'blasphemy';)

I saw the thread on 'cadence' and I was immediately interested b/c my cadence picked up automatically by using this cleat position and it 'lightened' up my foot on the upstroke....as in I'm not fighting a 'heavy' foot on the opposing side during the recovery.

Thanks for your opinion as it's one of a few I greatly value.

I used to run my cleats all the way forward, because I thought you got more "leverage" (which maybe you do). But then I heard from a friend who worked with the High Road team that all their GC guys ran their cleats all the way back on the shoe (without custom drilling). Dan's rule of thumb is (I think) mount the cleats 1/3" of the overall SOLE (of the shoe) length from the front. So in my case, that works out to ~10cm, which is as far back as they will go on the standard speedplay adapter. I think this has been a good change, especially for running after, since I find my calves get less fatigued, which makes sense since they work through less ROM.

People I know who have tried midfoot (arch) or even heel mounted cleats report this phenomenon even more. I.e., even less calf usage. But at some point, that doesn't seem to be a good thing if you are actually interested in racing, since you are taking a muscle out of play that helps provide power. I.e., for long distance touring, I would definitely try arch - or even heel - mounted cleats. But for racing, you do want to use your calves some. So at that point, it becomes personal. Given that you had achilles injuries, I'm not suprised that you tried arch mount cleats or that you found success by doing so.

I don't know that there is a great answer, but I generally just put cleats as far back as they will go, without drilling new holes.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Okay thanks for your insight. I had read about Joe Friel? who uses the true midfoot/arch position, but the Speedplay fore/aft adapter seemed to be a happy medium between conventional wisdom and midfoot/arch.

I can't argue with the results and certainly my calves are used much less. It's been a blessing as both my knee and Achilles are behaving!
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for you explanation. OK, you did get back some of the respect I had lost for you. If you go back and and read some of your responses about Chrissie, I think you were portraying her as mindless, just do what Brett Sutton says. I know you never said "mindless". I do not know one way or the other if that is the case, but I wouldn't portray anyone of being mindless, even Frank.
Frank is stuck on HR and you are stuck on watts- well that is how it appears in your arguments. (ok, I over simplified it) I bet you are both right. I know you are MORE right, but arguing with Frank doesn't help you case. Refering back to Power Crank rants puts you in ranks of us STers, not a scholar of the sport.
As an engineer (I believe that was your field), you want quantifiable answer. As a biology person, so do I. The difference I believe is that the physical sciences always have precise results. Biological answers have a lot of variables we do not fully understand and rarely have precise answers-the joy and frustration of it.
Go train or rest, depending on what you need to do.

Team Zoot So Cal
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Re: chrissie wellington's cadence [Karl] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Thanks for you explanation. OK, you did get back some of the respect I had lost for you. If you go back and and read some of your responses about Chrissie, I think you were portraying her as mindless, just do what Brett Sutton says. I know you never said "mindless". I do not know one way or the other if that is the case, but I wouldn't portray anyone of being mindless, even Frank.
Frank is stuck on HR and you are stuck on watts- well that is how it appears in your arguments. (ok, I over simplified it) I bet you are both right. I know you are MORE right, but arguing with Frank doesn't help you case. Refering back to Power Crank rants puts you in ranks of us STers, not a scholar of the sport.
As an engineer (I believe that was your field), you want quantifiable answer. As a biology person, so do I. The difference I believe is that the physical sciences always have precise results. Biological answers have a lot of variables we do not fully understand and rarely have precise answers-the joy and frustration of it.
Go train or rest, depending on what you need to do.

I would actually say that "just do what [your coach] says" is not mindless. I would actually say it's quite intelligent. In fact, I would say it also a lot more intelligent, as far as advice goes, than "push a big gear." Chrissie is very intelligent. However, in this particular case, I think her intelligence is reflected in trusting her [former] coach, rather than some in depth analytical understanding of physiology, etc. That's my *opinion.*

The reference to old PowerCranks rants is relevant in this case because Frank has, on multiple occasions presented the idea of HR=efficiency, and has, on multiple accounts, been corrected (by folks other than me). So the point was, "we've done this dance before." He keeps making the same claims about "efficiency," and keeps being shown he's incorrect. That's SOP. He knows the studies about cycling efficiency and cadence, because some of them are the exact same studies that demonstrate why PowerCranks don't work, and they've been referenced many times before. It's like beating a dead horse. The horse may be dead, but if you beat it long enough, it can still wear *you* down.

I'm caught up on performance. Not watts. Or HR. Or anything else. Performance. And Chrissie obviously performs. But, again, WHY does she perform? Is it because of - or in spite of - the things that she does.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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