Pink?

People who ride mostly outdoors are generally better "cyclists" than those that ride mostly on a turbo, and people who ride in groups tend to be the better of the bunch.

Strong rider does not equal Good cyclist

You absolutely have to ride outdoors to become a good cyclist. Some solo skills you must have:
- take a corner at speed
- properly hit the apex descending
- drink from your handheld water bottle at speed
- stop on a dime without crashing
- bunny hop small debris
- ride out of the saddle, preferably without rocking
- climb in a straight line

You don't get that on the turbo. There's a time and place for turbo and it's an integral part of training. But try to develop some actual skills as well, don't be a total fred out there.

You used the term "Fred." The last time I used that was in a thread entitled "You're Going to Get Yelled at If..." on another forum. We should start using it more around here :)

Add to that list an understanding of traffic dynamics and intersection strategies. I truly believe the people who are afraid of riding outside were never shown how to safely interact with traffic.

Also, don't forget that you have to be able to get a snack out of the center back pocket of your jersey and open it while riding at speed in a straight line.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

More than a few others believe this is the likely outcome. More poorly skilled bike riders in triathlons. What possibly could go wrong?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

That's easy: very, very few. There's no epidemic of cyclists getting taken out left and right. The more riding is done outside, the better the riders become, and the more aware of cyclists the drivers become. Win-win.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Even the most observant cyclists can't see everything in the road until it is too late to avoid. I've bunny-hopped on my aerobars once in my life (within the last two years or so; I remember where it was), because the hole was in shadow and I couldn't see it until the only options were crash or bunny-hop at speed on the aerobars.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Yes! And ride no-handed.. even on a TT bike. And ride really really slow in a straight line. There are so many solo skills that one should possess even prior to attempting the group ride dynamic. But when a crowded IM race turns into a glorified group ride it's no wonder it's a complete cluster.

I once went to a stage of the old Tour duPont in Pennsylvania (IIRC). We rode the course counter-clockwise to watch the peloton go by a few times. Once, they came by at speed in a large bunch, and I was amazed to see guys sitting in the middle of the group taking off their jackets.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

That is a fairly basic skill for serious roadies. All the guys I know who are Cat1's and 2's are as smooth no handed as with their hands on the bars.

I'm nowhere near that level but I have been inspired to work on riding no handed as a skill exercise and I highly recommend it. I try to end most road bike rides going no handed for a bit while cooling down.

As for clothing on the move, jackets freak me out because my arms get stuck and keeping the sleeves out of the rear wheel looks like a challenge but I can take off a vest or arm warmers and get them in a pocket no problem. I'm not confident enough to do that though without moving to the back of the pack. Taking out half the group on the Saturday coffee ride because you could not wait 10 minutes to the next stop light would be a bit hard to explain . . . . .

I lived in Florida for awhile and riding outside anywhere except the Suncoast Parkway was scary. I got very good at long trainer rides but think I lost some of my road skills. Riding in Boulder now I feel comfortable riding outside and those skills have all come back. I think a good blend of inside and outside helps keep those skills fresh.

A friend of mine (top rookie at RAAM one year) could take off his jacket while on the rollers. I was thrilled I could get onto my aerobars and off while on rollers without falling over.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

No question you have to use some common sense when it comes to stuff like that. Sunday during a club tour ride I took a water bottle out of my jacket pocket and handed it to my riding partner, removed my jacket and tied it around my waist, and then took the water bottle back and put it in my jersey pocket, all while riding a slight uphill at about 18 mph and talking. A group of women that watched me do it were not impressed and thought it was just showing off and dangerous. I told them it was only dangerous if you were a Fred or Freda. They didn't get the insult.

There seem to be a lot of riding skills that were common in the 80's and 90's that have been lost with the new riders. I guess us old guys are to blame for not holding the standards that we were held to, or we could blame the technology.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Triathletes have always been labeled as having poor handling skills and making bad cycling judgements long before Zwift ever came to be. ...Don't blame Zwift, or the rise of smart trainers for the ineptitude of (some) triathletes;).

If you can do this on rollers, you can more than likely do it on the road. But most people are not training on rollers.

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I'm not blaming anything (ultimately each of our responsibilities to have our shit together)--just wondering if it might be leading to more accidents...what do you think?

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Are there more accidents than there were pre-zwift?

You think the JACKET is hard -

Believe it or not, looking over your left shoulder to see if a car is back there causes more swerving and potential mayhem than the jacket! I know, you 'think it's fine because I do it all the time and no problems", but trust me - unless you can do this on rollers, you swerve - a LOT. Moreso than when removing a jacket ,since at least with the jacket your eyes/head is forward, whereas your frame of reference is all off when looking over your shoulder.

This usually isn't a on-road issue until you're riding in a fast, elbow-to-elbow pack, and which point if you swerve, you will bump the guys next to you. Triathletes rarely ride this way, but it doesn't mean they're doing that 'look' safely.

Again, try it on the rollers before you assume you are holding a straight line on it. You will be absolutely horrified at how impossible it will seem until you practice it and have a whole new respect for the potential mayhem of this move when a novice does it.

And guess what - if you're a fast rider and you yell "on your left!" on race day, what's the first move the slower guy/gal in front of you often does? Yep, that same move of looking left over their shoulder - with a massive swerve. THAT is a big (?main?) reason for the mayhem, not Zwift or indoor training.

sure seemed like it on Sunday in Atlantic City! Most of the ones I saw were due to rider error and I saw a bunch more that almost happened for the same reason. It seemed that there were a fair number of very strong cyclists involved--not just a Newbie phenom....

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Your last line is the point I'm getting at isn't it? Zwift/indoor training isn't causing the accidents per se but it's the lack of outdoor honed skills. And why don't people get those? Because they are on Zwift and not outdoors....

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Outdoor riders are still mostly terrible at this not-swerving-over-the-shoulder look move. Sure, better than indoor only riders, but it's offset by their overconfidence in how well they do this move. And then on race day, they suddenly have to ride in crowded conditions, etc.

If you don't actually practice this on rollers, odds are good you are going to be pretty terrible at it despite your overconfidence that you can hold a straight line when you do it, even if you ride outdoors a lot.

Zwift/ indoor training aside, I'm willing most Triathletes don't practice riding in the rain period. What compounded the issue Sunday at AC 70.3 were several fold. Firstly, it rained very lightly for a period of time before finally down pouring. This caused just the ice effect with the road oils. And on top of that, the AC course is very urban so there are a ton of pot holes, grates, man hole covers, thick white road lines. Lastly, you had the 3-loop course with lots of beginners.

The Tour de France is proof that even the best bike handlers crash.

I'm not sure how well I can do any of that. I definitely can't bunny hop, I rarely ride out of the saddle so I'm not sure. Florida doesn't have much in the way of climbs, so I think I climb straight, but who knows. When riding outside I drink from by BTA while riding. Stopping on a dime would depend on how fast I can get my shoes unclipped, but falling is a definite possibility. I'm not sure I've ever had to completely stop on a dime. Don't know about the first two, as I'm not entirely sure what they entail.

I'm about 70/30 indoor/outdoor, but outdoor is by myself on the tri bike. I do ride some trails on the Mountain Bike occasionally, but I'm not sure how those skills would transfer.

I think everyone can appreciate your honesty. If you ride some MTB I can't imagine you don't have more skill than you think you do. I'm not familiar with the technical level of MTB trails in FL.

Take a corner at speed .. means at race speed, say 25mph as a nice round number, can you take a 90 degree turn without breaking or slowing down?

Hit the apex properly on a descent .. means when descending, can you set up the turn appropriately wide as to dive through the corner and exit holding your line, without abnormal early or late breaking, or heaven forbid .. exiting the roadway? Descending predictably, smoothly, and with as little speed deviation as possible is an absolutely essential group riding skill. And it can make descents fun, easier, and faster when you ride solo.

It all takes practice. And outdoor riding :)

Bring back down tube friction shifters and real cleats with pedal straps and skills will improve! We used to have to take a hand off the bars for every shift and at every stop if you cinched down the toe straps. Now you can ride for hours and never have to take your hands off the bars ;-)

Not at all. Just the appropriate approach to science. Here trainer riding is proposed as a way that a rider’s strength could exceed his skill. How else could this happen (i.e., what alternative hypotheses exist)? Doping.

It seems maybe your issue was simply the semantics of calling someone strong who lacks bike handling abilities. If so, ok, whatever. In place of “strong” substitute “having the ability to produce many watts.”

Lot's of people (triathetes) can corner fast when they have enough road to let the line fall where it does. The skill comes with having the confidence to corner fast when the line is dictated for you by road conditions or other riders.

I've been doing a weekly road race series for almost 20 years, I've seen a 1000 people show up and have to learn to corner in a pack. What happens is that the corner ends up being a series pulses turning sharper and then backing off. After a while that smooths into a continuous arc which is sharper than most realize they can turn.