Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 4:27

Post #126 of 164 (2452 views)

I put a big 'run focus' in over the winter. I set myself some mileage targets and increased my running to 50+ miles per week on a consistent basis. Not every week, but rarely dropped below 40. I saw improvments in my run splits and all my shorter racers.

Then came the 'A' race, overbiked, then shuffled to the finish line. Guess what my next focus will be?! The bike.

What was most disapointing about this was that I had worked so hard my run, but due to the overbiking, I never got to use it. People focus on the bike so they can make the most of whatever run fitness they have, how much time they invest in that varies, but superior bike fitness and correct pacing allows you to do that. Thats why you often see the 'bike focus' routinely mentioned.

I'm paraphrasing here, but there was a comment on here that went something like 'superior run fitness gives you a greater margin for error on the bike'. Whilst a better paced bike will almost always guarantee your fastest run split, I believe there is some truth in this statement. Greater run fitness, will allow you to run closer to your optimal pace off the back of bad bike. (appreciate the variables here regarding the amount you 'overbike')

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 5:23

Post #127 of 164 (2434 views)

h2ofun wrote:

Stevie G wrote:

Bike has a large impact on the run especially in LC

Totally agree.

But in short course, not so much.

Not exactly. Even in a sprint Tri, a strong cyclist can put a 3 to 4 minute gap on someone exiting the water at the same time. Over a 5k, that's tough to bridge unless you're running sub 19 pace.

Human Person

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [trismitty] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 6:43

Post #128 of 164 (2400 views)

trismitty wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Stevie G wrote:

Bike has a large impact on the run especially in LC

Totally agree.

But in short course, not so much.

Not exactly. Even in a sprint Tri, a strong cyclist can put a 3 to 4 minute gap on someone exiting the water at the same time. Over a 5k, that's tough to bridge unless you're running sub 19 pace.

True. I am not thinking about the .1% bikers, they are in another league from the rest of us.

But, the reason I do the Olympic, rather than sprint, is a lot of folks can fake the run for a 5K, put a 10K in front of them and a lot fall apart during the second 5K.

Again, I am not talking the .1% folks. I am talking the 99% of folks racing.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [trihard1980] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 6:47

Post #129 of 164 (2396 views)

trihard1980 wrote:

I put a big 'run focus' in over the winter. I set myself some mileage targets and increased my running to 50+ miles per week on a consistent basis. Not every week, but rarely dropped below 40. I saw improvments in my run splits and all my shorter racers.

Then came the 'A' race, overbiked, then shuffled to the finish line. Guess what my next focus will be?! The bike.

What was most disapointing about this was that I had worked so hard my run, but due to the overbiking, I never got to use it. People focus on the bike so they can make the most of whatever run fitness they have, how much time they invest in that varies, but superior bike fitness and correct pacing allows you to do that. Thats why you often see the 'bike focus' routinely mentioned.

I'm paraphrasing here, but there was a comment on here that went something like 'superior run fitness gives you a greater margin for error on the bike'. Whilst a better paced bike will almost always guarantee your fastest run split, I believe there is some truth in this statement. Greater run fitness, will allow you to run closer to your optimal pace off the back of bad bike. (appreciate the variables here regarding the amount you 'overbike')

Did you do lots of hills in your running?

I have never run over 30 miles a week. But I do more hill work in my running than most I believe.

I guess one of the advantages with my poor bike, is I cannot over bike it which maybe sets me up for a better run.

Still, going to put more focus on my bike for next season to see if I can get a minute or two back.

Another thing I think helps my running is I never do my run on fresh legs. It is 100% after my 90 minute interval bike. I also do a 6:30 10 minute brick after the other 90 minute
bike spins. So when I get on the run in a race, I am physically, and mentally used to running off the bike with tired legs.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [Stevie G] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 6:53

Post #130 of 164 (2392 views)

1) Most triathletes are not comparatively very good cyclists in terms of both power output and bike handling.
2) Bike fitness build a big overall engine with little risk and lot less fatigue than running. if you want to survive a 2, 4 ,6, 9, or 13+ hour race, you need to be able to sustain energy output for that duration.
3) The easier the bike leg is, the easier the run leg will be.

For myself, my overall performance has always been proportional to my bike fitness. I'm put in big run blocks and overall I went backwards in my triathlon performance.

TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Runningwithbees

Jul 29, 16 8:01

Post #131 of 164 (2352 views)

Saying only the .1% of bikers are rewarded for their bikes splits is absolutely ridiculous.

My comparative splits from a very small local duathlon this summer. (3 mile run/ 12 mile bike/ 1 mile run)

Me: Best Runner:
21:12(7:04 pace) 19:51 (6:37 pace)
34:22(20.95 mph) 38:00(18.95 mph)
6:58 6:47
1:03:20 1:05:32

I am generally a front third of the pack biker in split times. I wouldn't say I put out much more power than this guy but I had a much, much better set up and clothing choices on a day with 12-15 mph winds. And I was able to negative split my run times.

I would argue this guy lost the race because he doesn't spend enough time on the bike and didn't put effort in to his setup.

Moral of the story is that the race is the sum of all three parts. When you are beating people overall its generally because you have better fitness than they do, generally. I would agree that a lot of people don't race their best race because of pacing, but I disagree with your assertion that people are poor runners simply because they don't run as well as you do off the bike. Especially when you only compare to your age group, in which you are a minority of people that can still run fast and be mostly injury free. You can thank genetics for that.

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 9:46

Post #132 of 164 (2319 views)

h2ofun wrote:

Did you do lots of hills in your running?

The fact that you keep coming back to this indicates to me that you just aren't listening. I know lots of people that do several half and full marathons a year, and have no problem keeping a good pace throughout the entire race. But they end up shuffling along at a *much* slower pace in an Olympic tri. In these cases, it is not the run that is their problem, it was the bike.

Quote:

I guess one of the advantages with my poor bike, is I cannot over bike it which maybe sets me up for a better run.

Actually, you're quite capable of over biking, you just wouldn't do it at as fast a pace as someone else. Based on much of what you've written here and in the past, I get the impression that you just don't really like riding, and have a hard time pushing yourself. Most people I know have the opposite problem: its too easy to push yourself too hard on the bike. Especially when its still early in the race when you get on the bike, your adrenaline is pumping, and people often just don't want to let the others around them get away. Whether it is conscious or not, you seem to have figured this out.

The very first thing I discovered when I got a power meter a few years ago was how inconsistent my bike effort really was, and how much time and energy I was giving up, despite feeling that I was keeping a constant and sustainable effort. I live just a few miles away from a course that I race several times a year, one that has about 600' of climbing per 8 mile lap, and train on this course constantly. I installed my power meter just a few days before a race on that course, and I went out just to see roughly how much power I was actually putting out. I discovered that what I thought was a pretty even output actually varied quite a bit, with the flat and rolling sections at lower power than I thought, and the climbs at *much* higher power. A few days later, I did the race attempting to hold my power close to the average of that test ride, pushing a bit harder on the flats and going significantly easier on the climbs. The end result was a course PR for the bike, AND I felt better coming out of T2, with a more consistent and faster run as well. The solution was not "more hills", as you keep insisting, but more intelligent bike pacing...

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [Warbird] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 10:02

Post #133 of 164 (2310 views)

Warbird wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Did you do lots of hills in your running?

The fact that you keep coming back to this indicates to me that you just aren't listening. I know lots of people that do several half and full marathons a year, and have no problem keeping a good pace throughout the entire race. But they end up shuffling along at a *much* slower pace in an Olympic tri. In these cases, it is not the run that is their problem, it was the bike.

Quote:

I guess one of the advantages with my poor bike, is I cannot over bike it which maybe sets me up for a better run.

Actually, you're quite capable of over biking, you just wouldn't do it at as fast a pace as someone else. Based on much of what you've written here and in the past, I get the impression that you just don't really like riding, and have a hard time pushing yourself. Most people I know have the opposite problem: its too easy to push yourself too hard on the bike. Especially when its still early in the race when you get on the bike, your adrenaline is pumping, and people often just don't want to let the others around them get away. Whether it is conscious or not, you seem to have figured this out.

The very first thing I discovered when I got a power meter a few years ago was how inconsistent my bike effort really was, and how much time and energy I was giving up, despite feeling that I was keeping a constant and sustainable effort. I live just a few miles away from a course that I race several times a year, one that has about 600' of climbing per 8 mile lap, and train on this course constantly. I installed my power meter just a few days before a race on that course, and I went out just to see roughly how much power I was actually putting out. I discovered that what I thought was a pretty even output actually varied quite a bit, with the flat and rolling sections at lower power than I thought, and the climbs at *much* higher power. A few days later, I did the race attempting to hold my power close to the average of that test ride, pushing a bit harder on the flats and going significantly easier on the climbs. The end result was a course PR for the bike, AND I felt better coming out of T2, with a more consistent and faster run as well. The solution was not "more hills", as you keep insisting, but more intelligent bike pacing...

You are right, I personally do not like riding the bike much. I have yet to find a way, for me, to dig deep in bike training.

I agree on bike pacing.

But, for me, I just need to get better endurance on the bike. Not sure I can get this on the trainer, vs having to go back to once a week long bikes in the hills.

Thanks to everyone throwing out ideas, opinions. Helping me think of different opinions. Still going to see if I can find someone who wants to train on my trainers with me
which might help push me. Going to look more into erg videos. Just need something with music, etc to get the blood flowing. I have yet to be able to mentally do it on me own. :(

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 10:20

Post #134 of 164 (2293 views)

h2ofun wrote:

Great question.

I have a friend who is a studly biker. Generally has the fastest, or one of the fastest bike splits in any race he does. But, then he gets on the
run and just does not do well. We have talked a lot and I have offered that he may be going too hard on the bike. I asked if he had a power meter on his bike so he could collect data and compare on how he trains and races, he has nothing.

Dave,

It's more than a bit ironic that you seem to be finding fault with the biker friend not having/using a power meter to collect data when you yourself don't use one outdoors. Training indoors on the Velotron is great but finding out what you're actually doing outdoors would be incredibly enlightening. Perhaps you're putting out plenty of power but have a lousy CdA. Perhaps your brakes are dragging. Perhaps you're puppying the bike more than actually needed to preserve the majority of your run speed. A power meter would help you sort things in very short order.

Enough with the excuse about your knee. The local orthopedic surgeon has a name for runners with bum knees.............he calls them cyclists;) Running is way tougher on knees than cycling ever will be.

YMMV,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 10:42

Post #135 of 164 (2273 views)

sciguy wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Great question.

I have a friend who is a studly biker. Generally has the fastest, or one of the fastest bike splits in any race he does. But, then he gets on the
run and just does not do well. We have talked a lot and I have offered that he may be going too hard on the bike. I asked if he had a power meter on his bike so he could collect data and compare on how he trains and races, he has nothing.

Dave,

It's more than a bit ironic that you seem to be finding fault with the biker friend not having/using a power meter to collect data when you yourself don't use one outdoors. Training indoors on the Velotron is great but finding out what you're actually doing outdoors would be incredibly enlightening. Perhaps you're putting out plenty of power but have a lousy CdA. Perhaps your brakes are dragging. Perhaps you're puppying the bike more than actually needed to preserve the majority of your run speed. A power meter would help you sort things in very short order.

Enough with the excuse about your knee. The local orthopedic surgeon has a name for runners with bum knees.............he calls them cyclists;) Running is way tougher on knees than cycling ever will be.

YMMV,

Hugh

Yep, you are right. Maybe I need to write Frank Day and ask if I can borrow those powercranks he has which have power meters in them that I tried once when he came to my house and we put on my Velotron.

Now if I could find something for the right price, I would buy something. :(

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 11:08

Post #136 of 164 (2257 views)

h2ofun wrote:

sciguy wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Great question.

I have a friend who is a studly biker. Generally has the fastest, or one of the fastest bike splits in any race he does. But, then he gets on the
run and just does not do well. We have talked a lot and I have offered that he may be going too hard on the bike. I asked if he had a power meter on his bike so he could collect data and compare on how he trains and races, he has nothing.

Dave,

It's more than a bit ironic that you seem to be finding fault with the biker friend not having/using a power meter to collect data when you yourself don't use one outdoors. Training indoors on the Velotron is great but finding out what you're actually doing outdoors would be incredibly enlightening. Perhaps you're putting out plenty of power but have a lousy CdA. Perhaps your brakes are dragging. Perhaps you're puppying the bike more than actually needed to preserve the majority of your run speed. A power meter would help you sort things in very short order.

Enough with the excuse about your knee. The local orthopedic surgeon has a name for runners with bum knees.............he calls them cyclists;) Running is way tougher on knees than cycling ever will be.

YMMV,

Hugh

Yep, you are right. Maybe I need to write Frank Day and ask if I can borrow those powercranks he has which have power meters in them that I tried once when he came to my house and we put on my Velotron.

Now if I could find something for the right price, I would buy something. :(

A used Powertap wheel for ~$300 would have made your whole 175mm crank experiment take much less time and would have provided good hard data. If three Velotrons, three Cervelos, a 100" TV and redone pain cave fit within your budget. the utility of a power meter would certainly make it a great investment.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 11:28

Post #137 of 164 (2246 views)

h2ofun wrote:

trismitty wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Stevie G wrote:

Bike has a large impact on the run especially in LC

Totally agree.

But in short course, not so much.

Not exactly. Even in a sprint Tri, a strong cyclist can put a 3 to 4 minute gap on someone exiting the water at the same time. Over a 5k, that's tough to bridge unless you're running sub 19 pace.

True. I am not thinking about the .1% bikers, they are in another league from the rest of us.

But, the reason I do the Olympic, rather than sprint, is a lot of folks can fake the run for a 5K, put a 10K in front of them and a lot fall apart during the second 5K.

Again, I am not talking the .1% folks. I am talking the 99% of folks racing.

Yeah, I'm still not sure it makes a difference unless the runner in question really can't run. I'm not a bad runner, but I'm 6'3 200 lbs. At my fastest sprint or Oly tri, I'm still just slightly below 7 minutes (6:45 for sprint) per mile (maybe 7:10 for an Oly). It's usually only the former collegiate cross country guys who are clocking just over 6 per mile that run me down. It's happened, but not frequently. If you're running an 18 minute 5k or sub 40 10k off the bike, then I'll applaud you as you pass me. Even for an OLY race, a sub 1 hour ride usually yields at least 6 to 7 minutes (if not more) over the solid (not elite) cyclists. That's quite a bit to make up.

Now, those rare individuals that are ultra strong in all 3 sports present a different problem.

Human Person

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 11:38

Post #138 of 164 (2234 views)

sciguy wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

sciguy wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Great question.

I have a friend who is a studly biker. Generally has the fastest, or one of the fastest bike splits in any race he does. But, then he gets on the
run and just does not do well. We have talked a lot and I have offered that he may be going too hard on the bike. I asked if he had a power meter on his bike so he could collect data and compare on how he trains and races, he has nothing.

Dave,

It's more than a bit ironic that you seem to be finding fault with the biker friend not having/using a power meter to collect data when you yourself don't use one outdoors. Training indoors on the Velotron is great but finding out what you're actually doing outdoors would be incredibly enlightening. Perhaps you're putting out plenty of power but have a lousy CdA. Perhaps your brakes are dragging. Perhaps you're puppying the bike more than actually needed to preserve the majority of your run speed. A power meter would help you sort things in very short order.

Enough with the excuse about your knee. The local orthopedic surgeon has a name for runners with bum knees.............he calls them cyclists;) Running is way tougher on knees than cycling ever will be.

YMMV,

Hugh

Yep, you are right. Maybe I need to write Frank Day and ask if I can borrow those powercranks he has which have power meters in them that I tried once when he came to my house and we put on my Velotron.

Now if I could find something for the right price, I would buy something. :(

A used Powertap wheel for ~$300 would have made your whole 175mm crank experiment take much less time and would have provided good hard data. If three Velotrons, three Cervelos, a 100" TV and redone pain cave fit within your budget. the utility of a power meter would certainly make it a great investment.

Hugh

Lets get the record straight. I have four velotrons, 2 2009 P2 cervelos, a front projection screen, and yep, am tearing apart my pain cave as I write trying to get ready to paint it white instead of the black I have now.

Great point, if I find a used powertap for 300, then makes it easy to put on my bike. Will be on my list, I have nothing to lose, but still, if I do not push it hard, ....

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [trismitty] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 11:45

Post #139 of 164 (2223 views)

trismitty wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

trismitty wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Stevie G wrote:

Bike has a large impact on the run especially in LC

Totally agree.

But in short course, not so much.

Not exactly. Even in a sprint Tri, a strong cyclist can put a 3 to 4 minute gap on someone exiting the water at the same time. Over a 5k, that's tough to bridge unless you're running sub 19 pace.

True. I am not thinking about the .1% bikers, they are in another league from the rest of us.

But, the reason I do the Olympic, rather than sprint, is a lot of folks can fake the run for a 5K, put a 10K in front of them and a lot fall apart during the second 5K.

Again, I am not talking the .1% folks. I am talking the 99% of folks racing.

Yeah, I'm still not sure it makes a difference unless the runner in question really can't run. I'm not a bad runner, but I'm 6'3 200 lbs. At my fastest sprint or Oly tri, I'm still just slightly below 7 minutes (6:45 for sprint) per mile (maybe 7:10 for an Oly). It's usually only the former collegiate cross country guys who are clocking just over 6 per mile that run me down. It's happened, but not frequently. If you're running an 18 minute 5k or sub 40 10k off the bike, then I'll applaud you as you pass me. Even for an OLY race, a sub 1 hour ride usually yields at least 6 to 7 minutes (if not more) over the solid (not elite) cyclists. That's quite a bit to make up.

Now, those rare individuals that are ultra strong in all 3 sports present a different problem.

I have seen very very few folks who can ride sub 1 hour on the bike in an Olympic. And these that do, are the young total studs, elites, etc.

I guess a lot of this starts with what AG's are you comparing. If it is 20-24, that is one thing. If it is 55-63, well, I have not seen anyone do a sub 1 hour bike, other than a few folks who were effectively pro's.

I got a sub 40 10K off the bike last year. :) Barely.

Was just talking to a friend who is getting ready for Nationals. He is one of the very top bikers in our area, at 54. He kicked his running up some, but now a long time injury has hit him again with a foot issue. So what has he done, no running for the last week. No aqua jogging. Nothing to help him keep his running speed up. I told him to drive to my place
and I would loan him one of my Bionic Runners so he could keep training for the run.

Now, maybe this is a keep point. Maybe lots of folks get hurt running, then stop, and never get into a grove. And rather than use other tools to help keep the running strong, like
powercranks, Bionic runner, etc., they just fall back to riding more on the bike.

No question staying away from running injuries seems to be something a lot of the top runners might be lucky at?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 12:05

Post #140 of 164 (2222 views)

h2ofun-
Looking at your results, my question is:
Why don't you spend more time working on your bike and swim?

In triathlon it is our weaknesses that merit the most attention not our strengths.

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 12:14

Post #141 of 164 (2217 views)

I'm 44. I typically bike just under an hour on a flat OLY course and just over on a hilly (best time is 58 on a roller course in South Carolina). I'm by no means elite, but I'm competent enough at the other 2 sports to get on a few overall podiums and lots of AG ones. As I've gotten older, I've switched to frequent, shorter runs to replace the long plodding ones to lessen the chance of injury (which seem to happen much more frequently as I age, so you're spot on with that aspect). Still, if my competitors aren't elite runners, I usually like my chances. I'm a former 300 pound collegiate offensive lineman, so my 200 may be a bit different than others, but I do focus more heavily on the bike, a bit less on the run, and even less on the swim.

As Friel says in his book, "Your Best Triathlon", YOU MUST NOT GET INJURED.

Human Person

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [dirtymangos] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 12:52

Post #142 of 164 (2193 views)

dirtymangos wrote:

h2ofun-
Looking at your results, my question is:
Why don't you spend more time working on your bike and swim?

In triathlon it is our weaknesses that merit the most attention not our strengths.

If you look over time, the bike really took the dive this year, when I totally started 100% indoor training. Yep, will need to change that for next season.
Swimming, well, never heard anyone winning from the swim. I have plenty of time on the bike, but quantity does not make up for quality :(

But, since I lost very few races, even with my crappy biking, at my age, I can still win most races. But, I am hungry for being 60 next year. :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [trismitty] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 12:55

Post #143 of 164 (2191 views)

trismitty wrote:

I'm 44. I typically bike just under an hour on a flat OLY course and just over on a hilly (best time is 58 on a roller course in South Carolina). I'm by no means elite, but I'm competent enough at the other 2 sports to get on a few overall podiums and lots of AG ones. As I've gotten older, I've switched to frequent, shorter runs to replace the long plodding ones to lessen the chance of injury (which seem to happen much more frequently as I age, so you're spot on with that aspect). Still, if my competitors aren't elite runners, I usually like my chances. I'm a former 300 pound collegiate offensive lineman, so my 200 may be a bit different than others, but I do focus more heavily on the bike, a bit less on the run, and even less on the swim.

As Friel says in his book, "Your Best Triathlon", YOU MUST NOT GET INJURED.

Just wait, as you get older, it gets worse, much worse. :(

If one is getting injured, it becomes tough to stay at the top.

I am starting to see why most just focus on the bike. I am going to keep my fingers crossed I can continue to have to level runs, for me age, as a non single sport athlete.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 13:03

Post #144 of 164 (2186 views)

sciguy wrote:

Training indoors on the Velotron is great but finding out what you're actually doing outdoors would be incredibly enlightening. Perhaps you're putting out plenty of power but have a lousy CdA. Perhaps your brakes are dragging. Perhaps you're puppying the bike more than actually needed to preserve the majority of your run speed. A power meter would help you sort things in very short order.

This ^^

The very first ride I did with a power meter was an eye opener. I had always assumed that I was keeping a fairly constant output while riding, but on the very first climb, even though I backed off a bit, my power was still well over 100w above my average. 1800' of climbing in a race at that effort would definitely take a toll on my run. And I wasn't putting out quite as much power on the flats and mild rollers as I thought, my perception was that I was working harder on the flats and backing off on the climbs, when it turned out to be the exact opposite. Pushing a little harder on the flats and backing off more on the climbs during a race a few days later resulted in a PR for that bike course, and fresher legs coming out of T2.

Quote:

Enough with the excuse about your knee. The local orthopedic surgeon has a name for runners with bum knees.............he calls them cyclists;) Running is way tougher on knees than cycling ever will be.

I wouldn't rule out bike fit regarding his knee pain...

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 13:06

Post #145 of 164 (2184 views)

If I was a fast biker and kept getting Kona slots, why would I change anything? If you look at the stud age groups 30-49, all the Kona slots are going mostly to the top bikers. A few outliers have low 3 hour marathons but most are running around 3:25-3:35.

I wish I could bike low 5s and just cruise the run but I bike all out and still can't get below 5:30 on a normal rolling course so until I improve my bike I really don't have much of a chance even with a 3:15 or so run.

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [masterslacker] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 13:25

Post #146 of 164 (2170 views)

masterslacker wrote:

If I was a fast biker and kept getting Kona slots, why would I change anything? If you look at the stud age groups 30-49, all the Kona slots are going mostly to the top bikers. A few outliers have low 3 hour marathons but most are running around 3:25-3:35.

I wish I could bike low 5s and just cruise the run but I bike all out and still can't get below 5:30 on a normal rolling course so until I improve my bike I really don't have much of a chance even with a 3:15 or so run.

Yep, this is the reason I do not do long course. Unless you are a studly biker, the run means nothing, as I found out in IMLT 2013.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 13:50

Post #147 of 164 (2149 views)

h2ofun wrote:

But, for me, I just need to get better endurance on the bike.

You say that, but earlier you made this statement

Quote:

I have never run over 30 miles a week. But I do more hill work in my running than most I believe.

Seriously, never over 30? You started a thread to ask why people don't focus on the run but you have never run more than 30 miles per week?

I understand you are in you upper 50s. That limits the amount of hard running you can do. But unless you've got some serious, permanent, chronic injury, it shouldn't keep you from ever exceeding 30 easy miles per week. If you run easily enough and have good shoes, you should be able to have whole months well north of that. That's the low-hanging-fruit area of run training.

Unless the only thing you ever do is sprint triathlons, you throwing away time by lack of endurance on the run. Actually, even if all you do is sprint triathlons, it's still true. No matter how many people you catch on the run now. No matter how many hills you do, 30 miles per week or less, all the time is not getting it done. Hills are great but they are not a substitute for sheer endurance.

Last edited by: JoeO: Jul 29, 16 13:51

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 14:22

Post #148 of 164 (2137 views)

JoeO wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

But, for me, I just need to get better endurance on the bike.

You say that, but earlier you made this statement

Quote:

I have never run over 30 miles a week. But I do more hill work in my running than most I believe.

Seriously, never over 30? You started a thread to ask why people don't focus on the run but you have never run more than 30 miles per week?

I understand you are in you upper 50s. That limits the amount of hard running you can do. But unless you've got some serious, permanent, chronic injury, it shouldn't keep you from ever exceeding 30 easy miles per week. If you run easily enough and have good shoes, you should be able to have whole months well north of that. That's the low-hanging-fruit area of run training.

Unless the only thing you ever do is sprint triathlons, you throwing away time by lack of endurance on the run. Actually, even if all you do is sprint triathlons, it's still true. No matter how many people you catch on the run now. No matter how many hills you do, 30 miles per week or less, all the time is not getting it done. Hills are great but they are not a substitute for sheer endurance.

Yep, never ever over 30. I have zero desire to run more since I seem to be doing okay. I get extra run help from my powercranks and bionic runner. Lots of ways to do well at running without the risk of injury from too much running.

I am 59. Since very very few triathletes can run under 7 pace over 60, I am going to put the focus on my weakest leg now, which clearly is the bike. I was doing lots of quantity biking on the trainer, but probably very little quantity. I am now looking to see if I can find any folks in my area that want to join me in my pain cave. This might help me get more quality in my trainer workouts. I really really do not want to ride outside. :(

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 14:45

Post #149 of 164 (2120 views)

Some of the fastest bike guys I know are in their 50s. Due to the lessened chance of injury, you can afford more quality bike miles as you age. I wasn't always fast. I started out back to MOP in my 30s. I've become much faster in my mid-40s because I've learned how to train at prescribed intensities. A power meter used properly will produce considerable gains, but training with it the right way means a bit of suffering which many aren't inclined to do. I doubt you'll get much faster on the run as you enter into your 50s and beyond, but you could probably gain some speed on the bike. As it stands now, it sounds like you're getting beaten by the uber bikers. The question is, do you think your running speed will improve to the point that you beat them more than they beat you? My guess is that you could maintain your running speed (which you describe as your strength), but get serious about the bike and see some better results. I'm never the fastest runner, but I'm usually in the top 10-15% and often have a big lead when the run starts. Most of tri buddies who are all faster than me train with this philosophy too. I also find that I run harder (read as scared) when I know fast people are chasing me :).

Human Person

Re: Why does the focus always seem to be on the bike, and not the run? [trismitty] [ In reply to ]

Jul 29, 16 15:54

Post #150 of 164 (2270 views)

trismitty wrote:

Some of the fastest bike guys I know are in their 50s. Due to the lessened chance of injury, you can afford more quality bike miles as you age. I wasn't always fast. I started out back to MOP in my 30s. I've become much faster in my mid-40s because I've learned how to train at prescribed intensities. A power meter used properly will produce considerable gains, but training with it the right way means a bit of suffering which many aren't inclined to do. I doubt you'll get much faster on the run as you enter into your 50s and beyond, but you could probably gain some speed on the bike. As it stands now, it sounds like you're getting beaten by the uber bikers. The question is, do you think your running speed will improve to the point that you beat them more than they beat you? My guess is that you could maintain your running speed (which you describe as your strength), but get serious about the bike and see some better results. I'm never the fastest runner, but I'm usually in the top 10-15% and often have a big lead when the run starts. Most of tri buddies who are all faster than me train with this philosophy too. I also find that I run harder (read as scared) when I know fast people are chasing me :).

Agreed.

What I see first hand is a number of guys in the low to mid 50's can still hammer the bike. But, look at the 60 and above, I really have not seen many, if any.

So, for me, my focus is the 60 plus group and what can they do on the swim, bike and run. I use rankings, nationals results, etc to give me the data points.
I also raced Du National at bend, and here are the results.

Male 35-39, top bike 1:03, next guy was a 1:13
Male 45-49 top bike 1:07
Male 50-54 top bike 1:11
Male 55-59 top bike 1:07, second 1:11
Male 60-64 top bike 1:13, second 1:17

So clearly, from this race, they get slower. I was a 1:21 which compared to the 60-64 is not as bad as the 55-59

So, I just do not see that many uber bikers I am not worried about being number 1, never will be. My focus is top 20 ranked. All American. And do the best I feel
I can with my balance of training and being a Mr. Mom.

If you cannot get to the starting line healthy, who cares.

When I look at the sprint bike numbers, the same kind of thing. Times just drop big over 60. Just a fact of life for most folks.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

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