I flip turn because I am a guppy, and it is the only thing about my swimming that is legitimate....

i don't know about you but my biggest problem in the water is not gaining fitness. granted, i may have assumed a little too much in my original argument. nevertheless . . . below sounds like a training effect to me.

1. "You may find that when you do hypoxic sets, your body seems hungrier for air on the first repeat, but becomes progressively more comfortable with each repeat. This is because your body is adapting to the reduced oxygen availability by identifying and letting go of needless tension. Tension is nothing more than useless and involuntary muscle contractions that use oxygen without helping your swim faster. By relaxing and letting go of tension, you teach your body to use the oxygen that's available more efficiently."

There might not be a physiological benefit, but there is something to be said for learning "to be comfortable being uncomfortable" in the water. In a choppy, crowded open water swim, one doesn't always get a full breath every stroke. While they don't replicate the unpredictability of open water, flip turns do get you to that uncomfortable feeling a little bit faster.

Open turns, because (99% of my reason) I haven't tried to learn or work on flip turns (I have plenty of other things to work on in the pool, namely swimming) and (1% of my reason, but 100% of my rationalization) because in open water you don't get to push off anything and glide for 30-40% of your race.

"there is no physiological (ie fitness) effect from hypoxic swimming sets."

i've always felt hypoxic sets were silly. but, that's different from the question of flip versus open turns. swimming is hypoxic, particularly versus other activities, because your breathing is metered. you can only take in so many breaths per amount of work expended. you must train yourself to get used to that. flip turns mean no rest. open turns mean rest. flip turns in a pool are much more like open water swimming than are open turns in a pool.

if i'm barely making an interval, by a half-second let us say, and i come into the wall and immediately leave on the next rep, that's a rest. you can really feel that rest. i have never in 30 years met a triathlete who is a competent swimmer among those in his cohort who trains with open turns. maybe once you get into the 60+ age categories, where good swimmers in triathlon are few and far between. otherwise, every open turner is struggling to keep up with his cohort in the open water. no competent swimmer tries to defend the open turn.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Soooo, you don't push off the wall in an open turn either? A flip turn doesn't get you any further off the wall.

i more turn around and just start my next swim stroke without pushing off the wall. Probably just another example of being a crappy swimmer

I wish you'd consider typing hypoxically so we didn't have to read this pseudo-science.

This statement is fairly full of the elitist you're speaking of. Learning to swim fast in open water doesn't require flip turns. It doesn't require butterfly or backstroke either. Competitive POOL swimming requires flip turns, so it probably is a practical requirement of training with a Master's group - who's focus is on competitive POOL swimming.

But you can get fast AS A TRIATHLETE without them.

Ah, good point. I should have said, "competent swimmers being called elitist jerks for saying one should flip turn." Otherwise I stand by my point. For all but a lucky few, becoming a competent open water swimmer means spending time in a pool for part of the year, and that time probably isn't spent doggy paddling from one side to the other.

You can, but it rarely works out that way.

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Because I don't take 2 second breaks every 25. You don't get a rest in OW do you?

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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Update. My shallow end is 3 feet deep. Tried flip turn. Smashed head. Now my head hurts and I have my first tri in 10 days. I hate you guys.

I am 6' tall and can flip in 60cm deep in the kiddie pool.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

You're doing it too slow, not committing to the flip part of the turn. You shouldn't need much more than 2 feet.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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To respond to the OP, flip turns make you faster, they make you a better swimmer, and they acclimate you a little to the scrum start of an open water triathlon.

I'm terrible so I don't flip turn. Going to try again tomorrow, I always get water in my nose.

If you really want that feeling, do back/breast transitions with a suicide turn and full modern breast pullout (ie dolphin, then full pull, then whip kick, then surface)

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I'm a big boy

Doesn't matter unless your over about 6'10

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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I'm going to post a video of me getting a concussion tomorrow.

because I would get disoriented on the flip and usually end up in another lane. Also screwed up my breathing. A couple times a year I give it another shot at trying and doesn't' pan out. Only benefit I see would be for an indoor tri.

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Twitter@Forsey37

I am learning to flip turn, but I don't do it in Masters yet because I don't want to kill anyone in my lane (I'm all over the place).

Reason #97 to do flip turns: they keep your back flexible plus you get a little additional core work:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Way to tell it, black thug. Personally, I do flip turns because I've done so many that they are purely automatic. I'd have to actually think about it to do an open turn on freestyle or backstroke. Plus flip turns are an art form, as are our strokes. Almost everyone has a slightly diff stroke than anyone else. I'm sure that if you studied 10,000 videos of diff swimmers you might find 3 or 4 sets of 2 to 5 swimmers who had such similar strokes that they were hard to tell apart but, on the whole, most people have a distinctive stroke. Swimming smoothly and gracefully is an art form:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."