ME AND FARIS! :-D JUST FOR YOU LARRY!!!!!!!!!! ;-)



This was at the IMAZ carbo load dinner. I witnessed Faris eat about 3 plates of dessert, it obviously worked well for him! EAT YOUR DESSERT!

Mark Allen has never raced more than 2...i think he won in Japan (not sure if it was IM japan or Strongman) he raced Roth one year, then it was Nice/Kona.

Dave Scott same thing (less Nice).

Molina raced (and won) Embrun as well as Kona (I'd love skid to tell us which one hurt most...)..

Tinley, Browning, Glah, etc. also went to NZ, Canada, Japan, Roth that have been around since the early to mid 80s (although some started as somewhat shorter than IM races)

(so Dan, I wasn't there, but know my history ;-) )

Or Petr Vabrousek....

Petr Vabrousek is certainly afraid to train, that is why he races so much! ;-)

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

or Olaf ;-)

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“You can't coach desire.” --Dathan Ritzenhein
http://xtreme4.com/ -- an extreme ride for extreme change: go green

"coaches, as well as the athletes they coach, are way too protective today."

Why do we suppose that is? Is it because many of these coaches haven't gone there themselves? Is it because they take a view biased toward the athlete having a "successful" raceday...defined by actually finishing the race in a respectable time? (as opposed to pushing the athlete's limits with the potential that they blow up?)...Maybe it is because of the relatively short time that coaches have known their athletes and therefore have no real base for what "pushing the limits" really is with a respective athlete.

"Unless you're Joe Bonness!!"

the one who's got heart problems now? or is it another joe bonness you're talking about?

i don't know the genesis of joe's atrial fibrillation, except to say that joe's doctor says, "this is common in ultra endurance athletes," according to his wife.

the epic training, in spates, is very good for an athlete, i think. but the really dig-deep races, like an IM, that's something you have to be careful about doing. my guess, tho i don't have hard evidence, is that these sorts of heart problems often come from racing a long, hard race when suffering from a sickness, like a virus.

additionally, tho, when you break yourself down in a long, hard race, and then do it again a few weeks later, and then again, well, that's really a lot of work for one body.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

How is epic training as you described...even a weeklong session of it...different than repetitive ironmans?

it is common in endurance athletes only if they are vagally mediated..that is irregular albeit slow...then when you work out it stops...
i have 2. the doc who knew the diff between regular a-fib and vagally mediated a-fib told me it's common too (VAFIB)...ingo (olaf's twin) is a doc and said the same

I think part of the "blame" for current training is the wealth and quality of information currently available for basically free or low cost. How many times have you read on the board of someone following such and such a plan they got off the internet. Most of these plans are written incredibly conservatively to appeal to wide audience and maximize the chances of completing a race not maximizing an athletes potential. I would guess that most of the old-school athletes got their crazy training regimes through self-experimentation. The ones that did have coaches had coaches that were there on the side of the track in flesh and blood not in cyber-space.

SAC, you're a coach. And a good one based on my own talks with you and the way Sergio has risen to the top. What are you thoughts on being "protective"? Do you ever send Sergio out to be epic? Or do you let him do it if he wants to, occassionally?

Coming from rowing, I used to do some "epic" workouts (at least to me) every so often. I loved it. During the winter, we had a shortage of ergs, so we trained in split sessions. Sometimes I'd do both of 'em, just because. I did 20K's a lot, just because (80+ minutes seems rather piddly, but sitting on an ergometer alone for that long certainly feels epic when you are used to 6 minute races).

For some of these workouts, I had teammates, and that was a big part of it. A lot of these (but definitely not all) epic workouts involved others. Doing 40x400 WITH someone else is a workout I would definitely do, by myself, I think I'd rather go run 10 miles of fartlek -- the track is just too mind numbing. On the bike, though, I think distance is really limitless. I'm always awed by the beauty of the world when I ride, always...

A lot of being epic is just following the spirit if and when it moves you. I had a friend who was an IM guy who used to train near me when I was just starting and doing short course. I had done 8 miles on the track and then he showed up just to "run" for a bit. We ended up running another 6 or 7 miles on that track together. It certainly wasn't "epic," but it was FOR ME at the time having been doing tri's for only a couple months. I think many athletes train alone now, since they are afraid of others knowing their training plans, limits, etc. (among the pros that is). And maybe that is part of it. Pros don't get together to do crazy things. Sometimes it seems that these guys back in the day often trained together, despite being such big rivals. Maybe that is just a misconception on my part; I'm certainly no expert.

I love the idea of epic training. And I try to go epic in my own small way every so often, balancing some vague sense of my limits with my desire to see "how far can I go?" I think you DO need to be somewhat aware of yourself (having never ridden more than 100 miles, I think it would be foolish to go ride 200 on a whim, but someday I know I'll get to the point where I can -- in part by doing epic-for-me rides --, and then epic-for-me really will be "epic").

I think any workout that totally challenges the limits of what you believe you can do is epic. Epic doesn't have to be crazy long miles, just crazy long for you. My mother, who is 63, and who started riding a bike two years ago on arthritic knees once rode 42 miles. She went out with one water bottle and no spare tube (since she can't change them) and did it on a heavy Giant hybrid bike in running sneakers. It took her almost four hours. I think that's epic, and for her, it was.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

SAC coaches me too...so he isn't really good! ;-)
nothing epic with paulo (although at some stage we thought about called the camp in el paso, the El Paso International Camp)...
lot of variety, working everything vo2/LT/endurance at different time of the year, and when getting ready for IM , then a lot of IM stuff...
biggest week with Paulo was 30hrs.

Thanks for the compliment Rappstar, maybe I'll let you use a pull buoy at the camp in September ;-) Now for the serious part...



Because I'm a big believer on consistency, I don't believe much on one-off epic workouts. That doesn't mean many workouts I schedule are not tough to complete, but there's always another day of training you need to do. Why do 40x400 if you can't get out of bed the next day...? Also one word about being protective. Damn right I am protective. Injured athletes can't train. Burnout athletes don't achieve their long-term goals. And you see many examples of both in our sport.

So unless you approach training day-by-day, you have to plan, short-term, medium-term and long term. And that's being protective. Being an elite athlete coach is not about thinking about the most shit I can throw an athlete without killing him. So yeah, I'm protective. Now am I right? I don't know, even if Sergio or any other of my athletes does incredibly well or incredibly bad, we'll never know either. And that mystery is one of the beauties of coaching and sports in general :-)

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

I think that this more careful approach to training may have a lot to do with how society in general has changed. I remember playing all day and into the night with the local kids, sneaking into open fields and playing army with real rocks, getting into cars with strangers so I could go surfing, and all without a worry. And apparently my folks didn't worry too much either. Today is a lot different story, and it's all because of those milk cartons. We are a society built on fears, and they get hammered into us every day, through every medium. We over protect our kids, we coddle them in school, heaven forbid that someone gets a D in class. Can't hurt their little self esteem. Everyone is OK, and if you are not , give them ridilin. We are becoming a nation of sheep, stifling our creativeness, and just plain afraid to go out on that proverbial limb. I don't know, maybe this is progress and I just don't see it. Maybe every older generation thinks the same thing. The stats tell us that there are no more sexual abusers, murders, violent crimes, etc. than in the past. It's just much more publicized, so we are led to believe it is a dangerous world we live in. This is the age that our current pros grew up in, so is it possible that it has rubbed off on to their core personality traits?

"Injured athletes can't train. Burnout athletes don't achieve their long-term goals. And you see many examples of both in our sport."

SAC, this is true enough. But then how do you explain those DO train that way, and succeed? I can think of a few guys and gals I know who subscribed to the same sorts of training over the years, albeit at a slightly more everyman level than the super-elites we're using as models here. One of them was the guy who drug me through that 210 mile ride. For the most part, they are still going strong today as well...

"Why do 40x400 if you can't get out of bed the next day...?"

because you get first place in your race 6 weeks later?

epic workouts are not at odds with moderation, or consistency, or science, or the latest ex fizz. they're a part of it.

paul and kenny rode 400 miles in 3 days. they aren't going to get burned out by that. they aren't going to get injured. they're going to get better.

the problem is 500 miles cycling, 70 miles running, and 25,000m swimming, every week for 4 months. that sort of *consistency* is what gets people injured, and burned out, and keeps them from performing on race day. i'm not suggesting you're advocating that. but that's what's got these people into trouble. that and overracing.

pauli kiuru was the poster child for polar during that company's run-up. he was as scientific as any athlete in his approach to training. yet he believed in what he called his periods of "supercompensation." some athletes achieve this through a scheduled period of high mileage in one event or another. another set of athletes do this off-the-cuff, on a dare, whatever. in either case, the one thing that set apart the long distance triathletes of yesteryear from those of today is a spirit of adventure, and the "further up and further in" mentality that caused them to take themselves and their bodies to places other athletes would not go.

yes, sometimes they made mistakes. but they also went very fast. there were fewer triathletes back then, but at the very top of the sport there was as thick a list of top performers as there are today. my ex-wife went 9:12 in ironman germany in 1992. and got 6th. where is that field today?

the big problem then was too many ultra races in a year. i did not understand, and few others did, the potential for damage. a 400-mile, 3-day weekend is not nearly as damaging as an IM. they're not in the same category. it takes a few days to get over the big bike weekend, a few months to entirely get over an IM.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Sorry Dan, the devil made me do it"

no problem. i had a more expansive conversation with the young man, and found out really how it was back then. humble to a fault, but also honest, when you set yourself to the task of extracting the truth.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Old skool is always an interesting debate, and this thread brought out some great stories. The facts are Ironman times at the front haven't changed or are maybe a tad slower than 15 years or so of "high tech" training. There is actually more money available for triathletes to make a living at it now than then. Maybe it because they are just going fast enough to win. I don't know, but big miles are a factor somewhere.

Running In 1980 at Crescent City Classic 10 k took a 37 and change to make top 500 out of 25k runners. Now it is something like 42 min. I don't think there are as many Americans willing to run the 60 mi per week to run that sub 38 10k any more, The Africans seem to own the distance events, they train huge and largely without anything but a watch and shoes. Genetics,culture, high living and desire play a big part, but I would bet less than .5% of the world could stand up for the training weeks they hit over there.

Eddy M s record for the hour has been rarely touched, and even with trick equipment it wasn't spanked. He trained total old skool. There have been some advances with science in cycling, but a lot of it was making the bike faster, not the rider. I think cyclists have it pretty good now as far as number of starts in a career. Eddy has probably more wins than Lance has starts as a pro.

In my humble opinion there is no substitution for big big miles sometime in your training life. If you are young (20-30 ish) it is much easier to recover so start now if you have it in you. Yes there will be injuries, but you got the rest of your life to be old. If you are over 40 I wouldn't advise that kind of training unless you are really a tough guy. G

[reply]

Eddy M s record for the hour has been rarely touched, and even with trick equipment it wasn't spanked. [/reply]

Oh come on. When Boardman did the "ultimate hour" he averaged 35 mph, a world of difference to Merckx's 30.6 mph average when he broke the hour record. And then although Boardman only just broke the "athlete's hour", unlike Merckx he didn't ride at altitude and had to wear a helmet, both of which cost a lot of time.

If I would have followed the modern training advice way back when, I would have been a slow slug. That being said, I wish someone would have brought up that I needed a core exercise and stretching regimen. I probably would not have the problems with my back that I have now.

Brian, we're talking about the elite level here. Only at the elite level you can make conclusions about this or that kind of training and if it works, Why? Because only at that level the athletes have matched talent, or at least their ability level is very close. Below that level, athlete talent varies too much. Just as example, let's say that Sergio had raced his first IM, IMFL '03, as an AG. He would have won his AG by 35mins I think. He wasn't training much at the time, maybe 25hours tops, would that validade the low-volume approach? I don't think so.

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Slowman, we're probably on the same page here. I was only trying to convey that I see training as a long-term process, where there are no short-cuts. Some people believe that through "idiot-epic" training they can have their short-cut to success. That's not how things work.

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

reposted from the other thread...

the thing that bugs me with the example chosen, the 40x400m on track...what is the point of the session?

Vo2max? yeah sure...who holds 40x400m at Vo2max with appropriate rest for these sessions?

Lactate? but then why not do 10x1mi

start at Vo2max and finish as you can? great idea...then choose a mondo track...if you really want to be injured, might as well take one designed for sprinters with a lot of spring, to make sure your legs are shot at the end and you are fairly sure you will be injured.

"the thing that bugs me with the example chosen, the 40x400m on track...what is the point of the session?"

it's not about the number of 400s. they didn't set out to do 40 of them. it's about the evolution of the workout... how they got to 40. it's not the sort of thing that's supposed to make sense. you either get it or you don't. it's like that bumper sticker that says, "it's an indian thing... you wouldn't understand."

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman