Testing at all levels is a waste of limited resources and a turn off to less serious competitors that are just doing some local race. The likelihood of it ever actually happening is super low but testing at all levels is frequently used as a red herring argument against more extensive testing.

Doping is much more rare at lower levels of competition, focus on the higher levels rather than wasting money testing folks that are just in it for fun.

I have no problem if the Cat 3 guy that was popped was due to a tip. If they are sacrificing testing at the pro and Cat 1 levels to randomly test Cat 3 racers, I do have a problem with it as it's not effective use of resources.

It's easy to take a morally superior absolutist position on this but in the real world focusing resources on where the problem is most acute makes the most sense.

I don't think you do... believe what you say that is. You said this and then you correctly laid out the reasons in which both the above sentiment and the cheaters who cheat are existential threats to you, cycling, cyclists, America, and Western Civilization frankly.

That middle-aged jerk will not think twice when he gets into a leadership position and it comes time to burn you at the stake.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

This is the exact opposite of the real world.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I agree with you. I think because our lives are short we see things like bicycle racing or American football that are an iconic fixture as permanent by definition. When I started racing in 1983, there was pretty much no depth of infrastructure in the United States for cycling. Sitting now, all these years later, looking at the numbers for racer days, permits and revenue from license sales, one could make a case that bicycle racing in our generation may go the way of bunion derbies.

I very much hope it doesn't. The bicycle racing community has been part of my life for pretty much my entire adulthood. I continue to have involvement through my own racing, event promoting and working with juniors and novices.

We may wake up in a few years and have a national governing body that only regulates the Olympics and perhaps national championships and professional racing. The grassroots side of The ledger produces most of the revenue through license sales and race permits but it has increasingly become unsustainable financially because of the aging demographics of our rider base.

So what's the solution in this environment of dwindling resources? If you had one bullet in the chamber would it be grassroots drug testing? My perspective is, no. And your perspective might be yes. And since we are both genuine grown up adults we can disagree without shouting at each other which is a refreshing change. Perhaps because we both love the sport of cycling.

From where I sit, the nexus is growth in the sport by adding that marginal rider who may or may not come back for a second race depending on if the official yelled at them for having their number on wrong or if they felt silly getting lapped or if they felt like nobody talked to them after the race. Having that rider return and bring a friend, or getting the moms to start racing since their kids are already out there is to me the most essential and elemental thing that will build the sport back. On the whole I don't think those riders care at all about the behaviors of the people who win the race. And perhaps that's unfortunate, but I think it's also human nature. If we can give them an environment where they feel supported and they have a genuine sense of affiliation with the sport and with the people involved then perhaps they will keep coming back and keep buying annual licenses and supporting our events. But on this point, I also don't get universal agreement with many of my peers who feel that the way forward is through getting more super jocks to come into the sport. I have no idea which of us is right.

If someone is willing to cheat at something like this game that we all like to play....and get away with it; then wouldn't that suggest that they were also willing to cheat when it really counts? This creates a moral question of 'is it OK to cheat if you can get away with it'; and and even greater frustration that we have to ask that question. So...the real question that I would pose is if this type of punishment is a deterrent to change behavior to the way that we should be acting? The followup to that is who decides how we should be acting in the first place (i.e. who decides what is acceptable in our species/society/etc). Maybe the testing should be a community effort where everyone takes a piss in a communal cup, and if it comes up even a little positive, there are no awards, no podium, no official results posted. This would keep the price down and maybe discourage those who would break the rules of the game....or flip it around and just let everyone cheat without rules, and those who want to race 'clean' can do so but they would have a greater barrier to 'success'.
I've decided to just throw my hands up and accept that humans are human. Ive had races 'stolen' from me by cheaters; and Ive had various scientific work stolen from me by companies, individuals, institutions, and even a Nobel Laureate. It is what it is.


Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
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Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

I would think not. HIPAA does not apply to all individuals, just covered entities (health care providers, etc) If I (not a covered entity) see someone picking up testosterone at the local pharmacy, HIPAA does not prevent me from reporting that to the tip line. OTOH, if I'm a receptionist at the doctor's office, I am bound by HIPAA.

Regarding HIPAA, there is an exception for providing information to law enforcement, but a) I'm pretty sure USADA doesn't count as law enforcement, and b) that provision comes after a request by law enforcement - no provision for the doctor to volunteer it.

Apart from HIPAA, I believe doctors also have ethical obligations to keep patient information confidential.

That's like saying a person who is willing to break the law by going a few miles over the speed limit is willing to murder someone too. I mean they're both breaking the law, right? People want everything to be black and white, rather than gray. I'm more inclined to care when cheating matters and not give a shit if someone "cheats" at something utterly meaningless, again especially if they aren't even trying to cheat.

A guy cheating some other guy out of a pro contract is one thing, a guy "cheating" because he's taking some drug for some reason that has nothing to do with bike racing but he still wants to go out and race because he enjoys it and maybe or maybe not the drug results in him finishing a few places higher in the middle of the standings is the very definition of meaningless.

Honestly if your T is low, and has been tested as such, you may want to get a sleep study done to see if you have sleep apnea. If you can somehow fall asleep with a CPAP on consistently (I can't), your T will go up. Now, if that doesn't work, there are "natural" test boosters that you can get on the shelf that will help boost your Test. Granted, some of them are on the WADA list (Why, I'll never know, but it's dumb that they are). I would put a lot of money on a bet that a significant number of amateur athletes that compete in Triathlon and Cycling take Test Booster supplements like L-Carnitine-L-Tytrate and DAA.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Reluctantly sharing, aware I'm getting WAY off topic here, but just interesting...

I believe I have met the newly banned rider a few times who was given the suspension. I'm not coming completely to his defense, but will say he's a pretty nice person and I would guess he wasn't taking a substance for racing, but for some other reason, and happens to race taking the risk of getting caught knowingly, or unknowingly.

I competed in Kona as a pro a couple of times and had friends (PED using non-endurance athlete guys) who came and watched. They politely told me more than once that they know what to look for, and MANY of the competitors are not clean. I guess to some degree we already know this.

In terms of Arizona cycling, I thought it was funny they tested at the State Road Race up there in Show Low... I have a personal account of bike racing in 2017, I had achilles tendonitis and was overall just tired of triathlons, so I did a lot of cycling instead. It didn't aggravate my injury and I made lots of progress on the bike and was racing well. I did chunk-out a bit, and gained 10-12 pounds, mainly due to less exercise and not running I'm guessing. I decided to go do the AZ State Criterium Champs in Yuma Arizona, not overly excited about it, but a chance to put on a number. I was to do the Pro 1-2 race around noon, and then the 35+ masters race in the evening. I got in the break and placed 5th in the Pro 1-2 race, fairly solid for me. Upon finishing a lady aggressively grabbed me and said I was randomly picked for doping control. I almost started laughing out loud as there were maybe 8 spectators and we were in a small sleepy town in Arizona. I'd collected some fairly big checks (for me) over the last 15 years in triathlon and not once had I been tested for banned substances. Anyway, 3 liters of Gatorade and 90 minutes later I completed the test, and sort of had to hurry to make the 35+ race. In this race I got in a break with another guy, and lost in a 2-up sprint. It was late evening, and as I crossed the line the same lady started screaming,"NUMBER 4, YOU CAN'T LEAVE, WE'RE TESTING #4!!!" She grabbed ahold of me, literally 10 seconds after this sprint. At that point somebody said,"You just tested him earlier, you're taking him again?" She then said,"Oh ya, you were the one that couldn't pee, OK you're good to go then." It was all surreal, and at that point I felt like it probably wasn't random and maybe somebody had said I needed to be tested that weekend.

To me, I feel like it's a misuse of resources, I believe in testing, but there has to be a more effective way. Among people I know who compete in triathlons in Arizona, I would venture to guess that most over 45 y/o are taking anti-aging meds that are "doctor prescribed" and very likely wouldn't pass a standard test. Just my experience!

That's an interesting observation in your last sentence. I guess I live in a bubble I did not realize that was very common for men to use testosterone like that. Isn't it bad for your health? I'm pushing 60 and I'm sure I would enjoy all kinds of health benefits from it but it never crossed my mind to start messing around with hormones like that. Maybe I'm just being too much of a worry wart.

YES! RaceClean is working!

Insert a dump truck of Sarcasm when you read that!

No. For example, if I wanted to detail your chamois rash issue on this forum, I could, because I have no HIPAA responsibility to you.

Your sentiment is the crux of it IMO. Catching professional athletes at doping won't deter regular people from doing it, but catching regular people might prevent institutions from crumbling and might even trickle up into the upper levels if the enablers get weeded out early.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I have no idea if my T is low, maybe? I just wouldn't mine taking it to help add some muscle if I could find an easy way to get it.

How about a marijuana? Which I think is on the WADA list. Does anyone believe that someone who likes to smoke weed and race bikes is actually cheating?

They are breaking the rules afterall.

Depends on what we're trying to accomplish. There is a very good reason to catch Cat 4 cheaters instead of the upper levels that has nothing to do with racing or fairness or even resources.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I disagree that it's a waste, and it's my perception that less serious competitors in cycling aren't even aware that RaceClean exists. And those less serious competitors are unlikely to ever get tested because RaceClean almost exclusively tests podium placers at bigger events (state championships, etc).

USACycling instituted RaceClean because of a survey that indicated it was the single most important issue for USAC members who race.



As pointed out, I'd suggest it's the opposite. Though it's impossible to prove one way or the other.



That's they RaceClean institutes a RaceClean surcharge on amateur licenses. Amateurs fund their own testing. The funding pool for testing pros comes from another pot of money.



In my perspective, you're taking the absolutist position. You want *no* testing for amateurs (apparently). RaceClean is minimal testing of amateurs. It's almost the bare minimum level where anyone can ever credibly claim there's any enforcement at all. I've done hundreds of mass start races over the past decade, including amateur national championships and UCI masters Worlds. There was testing at 3 of those events (that I'm aware of). RaceClean's coverage is tiny. But I'm pretty confident that if USAC were to pull the plug entirely, it'd become far more of a doping-fest than it is.

I pay a $5 RaceClean surcharge per year. Not a lot.

What's the reason? Will it lead to growth in our sport? I realize that it's not the only criteria because the federation also needs to provide service for the existing customers many of whom probably do want increased testing at the grassroots level.

If there is a perception that the sport has become ridiculous because of cheating at the grassroots level, and I'm not sure if that's true or not, then it would seem like quite a lot of testing would be necessary to change people's minds.

I've never seen evidence presented from the federation that supports the idea that the majority of members have this great concern about drug use in their races. And maybe they do I have no idea but implementing race clean seems to be predicated on some vague idea that it was something that members wanted strongly enough to pay for it. It's a sport that requires participants to pay at least $100 for an annual license, plus their share of the permit cost and officials cost for the races they do. It's a lot higher bar to entry then running a charity 5k in your neighborhood on Saturday. As a promoter I'm always wondering if people are feeling that participating in the sanctioned race is bringing them more value than something unsanctioned. Perhaps the drug stuff will be a selling point I really don't know.

I'm not a doctor, and have never tried it, but 100% have seen first-hand how quickly it changes body composition and speeds up somebody who takes it. I'm sure long-term effects are probably not completely known... It's not hard at all to get prescribed, as longevity clinics/docs are everywhere in a place like Scottsdale. Racing should be for fun and personal challenge, for these reasons I've taken racing with a "grain of salt" since quitting cycling in 1999!

a few things to unpack here. first, there is almost zero chance you'd get a TUE for testosterone. not that you're looking for one. second, it's almost certain that your testosterone is low, if you're older. but it's low in scale to your age. i'm turning 65. my T is low. but everybody's T is low at my age. what you need in order to be low on USADA's radar is to be "hypogonadic" and that's very hard to achieve. if that was you, you'd have known it by the time you were a teenager.

you're absolutely right about pot. it should not be on the banned list, for anybody in a sport that requires high output. i've been arguing that with USADA's head since 2012 or so. he probably agrees with me, but when i interviewed him back then he kind of had to toe the WADA party line. with shakaria richardson hitting the IOC in the pocketbook, and making WADA look like very public fools, we now may finally right that wrong.

but your argument runs something like this: it's 1960, you want to rob banks in the south, you're told that you're breaking the law and that's bad, and you respond by pointing out the jim crow laws to justify your actions. pointing out that bad laws are on the books doesn't give you the moral right to break appropriate laws. mind, it's quite fine to supplement with T. just don't race if you do. easy.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dude, don't put words in my mouth. Where did I say that no amateurs should be tested? I'm saying don't test MOP & BOP folks like some here seem to advocate. Not a good use of resources and a turnoff to casual athletes. Limit testing to higher level amateurs. Don't just test podium place finishers at international events, though, there needs to be enough randomness to make folks worried. The only way you might argue that there is more doping at non-elite levels is if you define elite as pros and any amateur is non-elite, then you might have a case there. Among amateurs, it strains credulity to think that there is equal or greater levels of doping at MOP and BOP levels than at the highest levels of amateur competition.

I'm a strong advocate of targeted testing. Just not of MOP & BOP folks.

That's kind of what I was thinking. Taking testosterone would be perhaps a quality of life plus, but then I'd have to stop racing, which would be hard.

Ten years ago I reconciled that my best days were behind me. It's a bitter pill and perhaps I defined myself as a person through sport, but I'm at peace and continue to race as I can. In the meantime, I have found that training as I get older is a puzzle in itself and kind of fun.

Taking drugs would have been an option, but I still would have been declining every year, so what's the point?

That's really interesting. I must live in a cave or something, I never knew.

IRT Marijuana, everyone that competes seriously in Triathlon and Cycling knows that it is a banned substance in competition. Out of competition use had been declared as ok. The threshold for in-competition use is high enough that you'd have to be hot-boxing your van right before the test or are an abusive user. Additionally, it can be used as a masking agent.

But you're looking to take T for lifestyle purposes but you don't even know if you have low testosterone. In order to get a prescription from your GP you would need to be diagnosed with Low-T. Otherwise you'd have to go to one of those anti-aging clinics that just seems to write scrips en masse for the right price.


What's the purpose though? As a deterrent? Don't we do this in criminal law where people tell me that the death penalty is not a deterrent, or long prison sentences aren't a deterrent? I think they're very similar in that regard, the only way it is a deterrent is if they're actually enforced.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

The rules are very clear

If a person wants to take testosterone implants they would not race where it is against the rules

Seems simple to me

So I don’t know what I searched but started to get a lot of ads on Facebook about testosterone replacement. Seems you can get a blood test, talk to a doctor online, and get monthly doses of testosterone shipped to you for about $200/mth. There was a book, “ The Doper Next-door” where the author/cyclist described going through a TRT program, seemed like anyone would fit the need because of the wide band of normal testosterone levels. His cycling performance improved dramatically. However you body will start decreasing it’s natural testosterone output and there are many potentially harmful side effects including a rise in the risk of prostrate cancer. But like bodybuilding there are plenty who’ll accept long term health risks for short term gain.

Funny that we have threads about the dangers of taking NSAIDs during training and racing where there is almost universal agreement for not using them, and we’re somewhat ambivalent about the use of PEDs amongst our competitors.