We just need to step back, wait and see what Specialized and Cannondale do, and see where this goes. I've never met so many people who are so adamantly against a new direction for bicycles.

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Why would anyone IMHO ever wait to see what Cannondale will do? Damon may give them hope and Phinnry as new test racer great and all but everything I've seen from Cannondale aerobike wise at my LBS has been utter shit. I can't believe even brought to market never mind ridden in a world tour team. but WTF do I know?...

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@rhyspencer

So I put that to the test tonight. At 20mph, if I grab the brakes hard, I can start skidding in 5-6' (less than 1 wheel revolution) on reasonably smooth asphalt. This is with Tektro R350 calipers, Shimano brake pads, and Shimano RS-10 rims (I'm sure Tom A is laughing at how sub-optimal this setup is :) )

A few months ago, I did an impromptu comparison of wet vs dry stopping distance. It was extremely hot, and I was riding past a park that had its sprinklers on, which were doing a better job of watering the road than the grass. I did a couple of test stops on dry pavement with dry wheels, and then several while riding through the sprinklers. At 20mph, it only took me a few feet longer to stop. This has been my general experience, that when riding in the rain it rarely takes me more than a few extra feet to come to a stop. And when it takes longer, its generally because my rims and brakes have gotten oil or anti-freeze on them, and it takes a second or two to clear that off.


Since we're spec'ing bikes from entry level all the way up, that includes cheap Chinese crap all the way up to DuraAce. But mechanical brakes include higher quality companies like Tektro/TRP and Avid, not just cheap Chinese junk. But if you rule out all mechanical brakes, that takes out the majority of disc brake road bikes on the market.


Santana has been testing disc brakes a lot longer than most companies, and still continues to do so. I was talking to Bill McCready about this at InterBike the other month. When they find a disc system that meets their standards, I'm sure they'll start spec'ing them again.



I happen to live on the AToC Mt Baldy Stage course, literally just down the road from here: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=5890300#p5890300 Some of my Strava PRs on this road were set in the rain. My only real concern riding in the rain is tire traction, not my brakes.

As I've pointed out in previous threads, I live in what is technically desert. We get very little rainfall, and as a result oil, anti-freeze, and other contaminants collect on the road for months until the rain comes, and then it all rises to the surface. If any of this gets splashed on your rotors or pads while you're riding, there's a good chance you'll lose your brakes. And you don't get them back until you replace the contaminated pads and clean the rotor. At least with rim brakes, you might momentarily lose your brakes, but they come back quickly. You've had your "rim brakes suck in the rain" experience, I've had my "disc brakes suck in the rain" experience.

But you've missed my original point: You said "They simply are better". I pointed out that this is not necessarily true, and gave a few examples. For you, and where you ride, they might be. For me, and where and how I ride, at this point in time they are not...

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

My commuter bike is cable disc, yet to ever experience contaminated pads on it yet.

If I don't ride my MTB for an extended time, the brakes may squeal, but all that needs to be done is wipe the rotor with water and ride a bit and they are quiet again.
But they still pull up fine.

My commuter bike with the cable discs is far better going down the 22% grade hill just outside my door than my durace equipped alloy rim road bike.
In actual fact, my Zipp wheels are better in the dry than the alloy rims and very little different in the wet.
If it is raining heavier the alloy wheels fair a little bit better, if it rains harder, neither rim brake is any good.
I too have experience basically total brake failure in proper rain down a steep hill on rim braked alloy rims.
When the grade slacked off enough that I could pull up, I did and waited for the rain to pass, it just was not possible to continue with the rim continually getting wet.

But I would never ride a TT bike down that hill in those conditions.
So I don't care for a TT bike, any brakes that work reasonably well will do. Just give me easy maintenance.
But for a road bike, can't wait for discs.

For the poster who suggested anti lock brakes, why?
At maximum brakes your rear wheel is doing nothing and the available front braking is limited to going over the handlebars, not locking.

If you move your weight back, the front wheel will lock and slide, and you won't go over the bars.

When this happens (lock&slide vs. otb) depends on available traction (tires, road surface), bike geometry (front centre), your weight, and on how far you throw your weight back and down. Under hard braking I go off the back of the saddle. This is pretty much reflex now, learned from mtb.

This also keeps your rear brake in use for longer, but the front is still doing the bulk of the work.

I would love to see video of locking the front wheel under braking on road. Even hanging off the back of my saddle, I still start to raise the rear tire off the ground. I did the math long ago and with a reasonable coefficient of the friction, it would nearly impossible to get your cg low enough and far enough back to get to the point of locking the front wheel.

This would of course not apply when riding on dirt/gravel or other lower friction surfaces.

I've done it. I took a corner way too fast, figured I had nothing to lose at that point and grabbed both brakes as hard as possible. The front locked up and started sliding out sideways, I released the brake and somehow recovered, barely avoiding going off the road. As far as I can tell, my rear wheel did not lift off the ground.

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

Ok, I should have been more clear, in a straight line. Because yes, as you are cornering, you have less traction to actually brake. Also, did it lock or just start sliding sideways? Because I would be surprised if you were actually looking at your front wheel to see if it was still spinning. I have had my front wheel start to slide in a turn, but I bet when it was happening my wheel was not locked.

It definitely locked. The front tire started skidding before it went sideways. Had a nice big flat spot on a new front tire that was worn to the casing, and there were 2 skid marks left on the road.

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

Aerodynamics aside, I ran into one situation last Friday that reminded me of the advantage of cable-actuated brakes, and why I'm happy I have them on my road bike.

I was about to go MTBing with a friend on a pretty hilly route (eg, 800 ft climbs/descents with some 15%+ grades). I got on my bike and tested the brakes like I always do before a ride. I had nothing on my front brake (XT hydros). I pumped it several times and I got some power. We decided to just take it easy and ride relatively "flat" route where I could get by with just a rear brake (though it was sketchy at times). By the end of the ride, my front brake had completely faded (I need to figure out what's going on and have discussion with the same idiotic mechanic I've been using for nearly 30 years). This got me thinking about what it would be like to be in the middle of nowhere and have no front brake.

I would hate to be at the top of a big and/or steep climb with no front brake, and have it too far for me to walk back to the car (or bother with Uber). This only happens when I'm on my road bike. With team deals coming up, I was playing around with the idea of going with a road bike with discs. I have Di2 hydros on my CX bike and absolutely love them. Originally, I decided not to due to weight and having to get all new wheels (I change wheels between my TT and road bike). Then, I experienced hydro brake failure. Sure, this wouldn't happen to mechanical discs, but I'm either a rim or hydro guy.

I honestly don't get the whole issue with the frame aerodynamics on a road bike. OK, if you are actually going for solo breaks in a road race or using a road bike in a TT/tri, I understand. However, if I'm out riding around (even in a group ride) on the road, I'm going to get more benefit from my helmet, wheels, and kit (and mostly training).

To conclude, while I normally make fun of Trek and despise them (the Waterloo Pirates were our arch rivals in high school), I give them credit for taking a stance opposite the marketing depts of others in the industry.

BTW, my mechanic cleaned his garage this weekend and only found spiders, ants, and dust on the floor...no mineral oil stains...hmmmm..

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"Most of my heroes don't appear on no stamps"
Blog = http://extrememomentum.com|Photos = http://wheelgoodphotos.com

I wasn't the OP re anti lock brakes, but I look forward to those too! As with cars (except in snow and gravel), when you lock the brakes on a bike, you go from reasonable braking (ie slowing of your speed) to something less. A locked wheel will take longer to stop than a roatating wheel that's got the maximum braking that the road surface will allow. Stopping the wheel (either wheel for that matter) from locking, reduces stopping distances. That's a good thing, particularly when a solid object like a car, is in your path. Even if you still hit the car, with a non-locked wheel, you will be going slower when you hit the car. In my world, that's a good thing.

Also, when you lock a wheel, you have drastically reduced steering ability. If the wheel is rotating, but still providing maximum braking given the conditions, then you have some ability to steer to avoid the accident also.

As a slight correction, at maximum braking your rear wheel is doing less, possibly approaching zero. However, if the rider shifts their weight rearwards, then the rear wheel has at least some weight on it, and provides some braking. It won't be as much as the front wheel or maybe not as much as you'd like or need, but it will provide some. In a panic braking situation, I'll take every tiny bit of braking I can achieve. If 1% comes from the rear wheel, I'll say thank you for that 1%.

If you can avoid the rear wheel locking, you improve your chances of steering around the accident, rather than drifting (Red Bull style) into it.

Anti lock brakes were resisted on motorbikes for years, but they are slowly becoming more common and their benefits are being appreciated. I look forward to disc brakes first, then anti lock brakes. At the very least, it will provide me with the opportunity to keep buying bikes and reduce TriSpouse's spending on shoes. Surely to all that's holy, that's gotta be a good thing :-)

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

gabbiev,

Thanks for your reply. While clearly we disagree, it's nice to not have the disagreement devolve into an argument. That's a nice change for ST :-)

The great thing is that as bicycle purchasers, we are both able to buy the bikes that suit our needs and opinions on braking. Long may that continue.

Ride safe

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

I find my car's ABS much more useful in bad conditions than perfect traction conditions. I imagine it would be the same for cycling.

(I do believe current rim brakes are more than good enough, so I fail to see the need for extra complexity in road cycling -- not everything designed for 300kg motorbikes at 300km/h applies to 60kg racing snakes at 60 km/h.)

The plural of "Anecdote" isn't "Data".

I've ridden my MTB extensively in the last year, and I've experienced brake fade and even early onset of complete failure going down steep descents - on a tip-top, freshly bled and bedded-in Shimano XT setup. I've also had to put up with shit brakes with 70km of racing left to go because of a river-crossing in an XCM race.

On the other hand, I've gone down steep rough roads in Wales in the rain and was fine on my alloy rims, Dura-Ace pads and plain, no-name long-reach brakes. On the road, in the rain, I witnessed my GC position at a stage race go down the literal drain as riders went full-braking and slid off in the corners. The brakes had, unsurprisingly, more grip than the tyre. Those who took conditions into account didn't fall off their bikes and could modulate the brakes to remain within the (very) limited grip offered by the road at that point - the first rain of the season always leaves the roads super-slick.

Bottom line is both setups can fail, both setups can work. A specific incident doesn't constitute data.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

So you go for a ride on your cable bike.
Before you leave you notice that the cable has slipped and that the brakes barely work.
You then wonder why you had trouble on your ride.

Maintenance is maintenance, and to head out even though you know there is a problem is just stupid, doesn't matter what system you are using.

Hydro systems don't just fail out of the blue.
You had a leak.
Your pads/disc were worn way past replacement mark and there was no longer enough fluid to compensate.
You have never changed the fluid and now have seal/wear problems.

I had a rear brake cable snap at the caliper where it was continually flexed.
Wish I had of had hydro on would never happen.......




And I challenge anybody to post a link to a bicycle sliding the front wheel due to braking hard.
A bicycle will corner at 1 G, but can only brake at .5G before doing a stoppie.
There is more grip available than what can be utilised before you go over the bars.

Maybe some enterprising young film maker can find a really steep uphill with low friction values and make it happen, but in general riding, you just cannot lock and slide the front wheel.

Dang, that is crazy bad. You gotta wonder how many brake fades and total failures are gonna happen on road set ups. And the penalty for 'no brakes' on the road is usually way way worse than on the dirt.

What about the water crossing harmed your disc brakes for the rest of the race?

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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Probably oily residues and other contaminants getting into the pads. The brakes squealed horribly and post-race, wiping the rotor left black residue.

It's no different than the issue that scared people off carbon clinchers a few years ago - a rider with shit technique (my off-road skills are definitely lacking) will use his brakes far more and far too much on a long, steep switchback descent, until heat builds up in the system. For an experienced rider this might be a non-issue, but the novice will eventually cook his brakes, hydro or rim.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

mehhh


cervelo has data under under *real world conditions that make rim brakes A LOT fast, and lighter at the same time.

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

For the same reason as cars: shorter stopping distances. Anti-lock brakes do far more than "not lock." They modulate on the edge of lock-up. In any conditions. Good ABS can modulate brakes more efficiently and more quickly than humans can. You'll get shorter stopping distances.

There is some debate about whether pros can brake better than ABS. But the evidence that most F1 teams tried to get ABS on their cars during non-ban periods kind of suggests to me that really good ABS is better than human.

On my disc setups, I find that even dust/dirt can lead to squealing...or even just rinsing off the bike after a dusty/dirty ride. Very annoying. Seems to go away only if I wipe down the rotors with isopropanol :-/

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

tip for tridork: take a road bike if it is raining that much...

You either never rode in the rain, or trolling about times saved etc. In both cases if you have breaks properly set with proper pads and rims etc (top end on both sides), you can very easily lock the wheel breaking, rain no rain.

Since we are trolling, how man times did you race in the rain? In my case 0 in 2016, If at list 51% would be in the rain it potential could make a difference considering cost/value etc
Disc on TT makes as much sense at Tri helmet in cyclocross.

Well...don't forget that they're also dealing with multiple wheel brakes tied to the same "lever"...very often when watching F1 you'll see single wheels locking up under hard braking and turning (i.e. varying wheel loads). ABS would tend to reduce that but still allow maximum braking on the other wheels...something a driver can't do just by lifting the pedal.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

What you mention is a HUGE performance enhancement. The other aspect is that ABS in a race car can reduce the cognitive load on the driver, thereby freeing them to worry more about other things (get the most lateral grip from their tires). This is obviously not a linear thing and takes time to adjust, but it can be an advantage.

The interesting thing is most passenger car systems are set up in a very particular and somewhat curious way. Traditionally they rotate which corner is locked around the car. Which leads to a 'shimmy' feeling if braking in a straight line hard enough and long enough to engage the ABS. It's disconcerting the first couple of times you do it but it is there to enhance the overall stability of the system...if all the wheels were to lock up / release on the same sequence you could lose traction while turning (due to stick/slip having 2 very different friction coeff). Alternating around the car means that at least 1 wheel (usually 3) are rotating and have more potential lateral grip. Optimizing that for race cars is not a trivial problem.

One of the biggest advantages of ABS is that your ability to steer is a lot more effective since the tires never skid. Once the wheels lock up, they skid in a straight line regardless of which way you turn the wheels. With ABS, you still have your full steering capabilities.

Right. But on a hypothetical ABS bike, you could get rid of a lever and do effectively the same thing. The ABS would send the optimal clamping force to each wheel given the inputs, wheel speeds, and maybe even the input torque from the rider (with power meter). And maybe the steering angle and bike lean.

That would really reduce cognitive load. Panic stop doing 50MPH? Just clamp down on the one lever and focus on where you want to go.

Sagan won't like it - no more wheelies.

Edit: Wait, you can still wheelie. Not sure why I thought that required braking. Maybe front wheelies would be really hard.