RBR, this is the set. As I'm a lot more experienced and much farther down the progression curve than Tom, I was a lot more strict on the failure criteria, though. I agree with giving yourself 5 reps to dial in. After that, I'd only allow myself 0.4 seconds buffer over target time. And if I missed consecutively, even if both were under 0.4 seconds slow, I'd call it a failure. (I use a finger stopwatch to time my repetitions to .01 precision). Exceptions were made if I knew the failure was a technical glitch (like a blown turn, accidental water ingestion, etc) and not neuromuscular failure.

I would recommend starting at your 1000TT pace + 1 second/100. If you fail to make it to ten for a couple workouts in a row, back off the pace. As soon as you make 26 or more before failing out, advance the pace for subsequent training, by at least a half a second/100, or maybe a second/100.

I did this, or something similar (75's, 125's, 150's) once or twice a week for 7 months. On the other days, I did similar sets of 25's at 100 free race pace or I did butterfly work.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I'm an adult onset swimmer. I started upping to 4x a week swimming on a 1:40 base/leave interval (whatever swimmers call it) using a 25 yard pool. I am now consistently (dare I say easily) swimming on a 1:30 base/leave interval and have even done a few of the sets on 1:25 with success. Think that was a 3x(4x100, 100 easy). I recently PR'd my 100 free at 1:09 off the wall, however I say that having never really attempted a fast 100 and that came on the last 100 of a ladder before the cool down (I was 2900 yards in).


As for workouts - getting to the pool is the issue, once I am there I can fit in more time usually. I don't generally mess around or really take long breaks between sets. I do most my swims alone for the sake of efficiency, but when I do swim with others I still try to avoid much standing around.

The content of my workouts have primarily just come from the old Tarpon Challenge. I have weeks 1-6 on cards in my swim bag and rotate through them trying to get 4 of the 5 weekly sessions. I started the first two weeks just swimming easy for 4 days then started in on week 1. I would be starting week 5 next week. I'll be honest, I often substitute the kick/backstroke stuff for more freestyle swimming and I often swim with zoomers for the warm up after swimming with Tim a few times at Magnolia and noticing he has his crew do a lot of their warm ups with fins.

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"It's good enough for who it's for" - Grandpa Wayne

As for workouts - getting to the pool is the issue, once I am there I can fit in more time usually.//

Ok, you and I are almost the same as far as pace, so you should be getting more yardage in the hour you spend at the pool, and if you can stretch some minutes, you would easily be 4 to 4.5k a workout. So 4 to 6k more a week, without any more driving, parking, or time lost in getting to swimming..


And zoomer swims are great, I used to do them, but need to get a new pair. Also do some big pulling sets. When you swim all alone, they are great for making sure you are pulling correctly, and of course help you get in more yardage too..

I'm not sure who the article was really addressed to: Professional triathletes who do not swim as much as, say, professional (or elite-level) OWS swimmers; or age group triathletes who do not swim as much as, say, age group masters swimmers? As an age-group triathlete who trains maybe 10-15 hours a week, tops, I tend to prioritize my workouts across 3 disciplines and I'm not trying to match a 2-a-day masters swimmer who is spending 10 hours a week in the pool alone.
Over the years, I have been in masters programs that emphasize more "triathlon-type" swimming sets (eg, longer sets, short rest, lots of stuff right at AT with short rest) and, for me, they produce better triathlon swims than the programs that emphasize sprints, different strokes, lots of VO2 sets with tons of rest, short-but-hard kick sprints, etc. (I have participated in the latter type of training and it helps less than the former). So my conclusion is that, yes, there is such a thing as "triathlon swimming" and you should train it differently than what you find in your typical masters swim program.

The article was written to the triathlon community who thinks there is something called “triathlon swimming.” The different types of training you’re talking about is the debate that has been going on in the swim community since the early 1980s.

Hope this helps.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

my last 70.3 run was 1:19 and i've improved my running significantly since then.
i know i can chop 10 minutes off my current 90km ride ability.
my swim i think was 38mins and has been pretty steady (pool and OW within error for distance and draft effect) for some time despite significant work. i just don't seem to be able to get any faster swimming - i expect if i focused purely on swimming i would but that is not going to be good for my tri results.

i will say that i have noticed significant improvements in my ability to maintain swim speed and do longer workouts which should translate to getting on the bike with more energy so i think swim training has benefited my tri performance overall but really i think the main reason i continue to work hard on it is that i'm embarrassed by my poor swim rather than believing it will really improve my overall time.

Thank you Gary P and Tom Hampton

Very much appreciated


Will be doing the workout tomorrow

Too many "triathlon" swim coaches stick to a typical swim program, 50s, 100s, rarely anything more than 200. A swim set a sprinter would do, someone who races no more than 100m in a race, yet people who swim predominantly in wetsuits and swim 3.8km in the ocean are doing the same swim set...

Wait, Cody Beals divulged that in the Ask Me Anytthing thread.

OK....now back to this thread. Heading to the pool for my 4th day in a row of 6000m to 7000m.

The funny thing is SnappingT mentioned 20+ hrs per week of swimming. That is 3 hrs per day. If I am doing more than 1.5 hrs per day, it's not sustainable for the entire week. 1.5 hrs per day works out to a bit more than 30K per week for me. At 10 hrs per week swimming, that's sustainable. 2-2.5 hrs per day, is a big volume delta over 1.5 hrs per day. 3 hours+ I've only done once in my life. I've generally been averaging 100 km per month for the last 3ish years since my last IM which was in Tahoe 3 years ago this week. I need a big month this month and next month to get back to 1200km target for the year (not that I am measuring and its extra tough with all the kick and IM sets I am doing now).

In terms of how much swimming during a meet, I just did my first 3 day swim meets this year. I probably ended up at the low end of the scale around 11000 to 12000m for the entire meet. I was a bit worried about over doing it (at masters nationals 3 day meet I was in 100 IM, 200IM, 400IM, 100 fly, 200 fly, 400 free, 1500 free....that alone was 2900m of racing...I felt 12000m was enough).

I do think that triathlon swimming is different for the final 2-3% of race day execution....but 97% is about being a better swimmer. It's pointless to train for the 3% without getting better on the first 97%. Perhaps like running speedwork, its icing on the cake....message to triathletes, "you don't have cake on neither the run or the swim.....go make more cake before worrying about the icing"

That 20 hours per week is for pure swimmers, usually high schoolers and college kids. Once you have a real job and responsibilities, that 20 hours per week in the water (which is like 25-30 hours including all the overhead time) goes out the window.

And dammit, Cody wasn't supposed to talk about that! He was supposed to mention some super detailed nuance that people can then latch onto as some kind of secret sauce.

I mean I love monty, but this obsession with stroke rate is a little over the top. True, most of the elite level triathletes are swimming with the higher rate, but that's the icing. I can really only talk about what I do with any authority, but I feel like once you get good technique and good fitness, then you learn how to change up your stroke at will. I can swim with a lower turnover, high turnover, 2 beat, 4 beat, 6 beat, breathing in whatever pattern I want depending on the conditions (although I still don't really like the 1-2 pattern that monty likes. I don't need that much air, especially for open water swimming that isn't getting anywhere close to VO2 Max. I get enough breathing 2, occasionally throwing in a 3-2 or 3-1 cycle) But I digress. The important bit is to develop enough feel, technical chops, and fitness to maintain that technique for as long as the race goes, so that on race day you can do any damn thing you please, and it won't have a significant penalty.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I wouldn't recommend 20 hours of swimming a week for any triathlete. It takes a long time to build up to that level of training load in the water.
With the article, I was trying to add some context to the amounts of training required for the race distances.

If you have any questions for training for a meet and all the strokes you are swimming, I'm happy to answer any questions.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

What would your ideal program design look like for a triathlete?

Those are also swim sets a distance swimmer would do too...FYI.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I mean I love monty, but this obsession with stroke rate is a little over the top. True, most of the elite level triathletes are swimming with the higher //

I'm not obsessed, and I have never advocated that someone with a shitty stroke just turn it over faster(of course everyone should attain a decent stroke before any nuances). All my observations are with top level swimmers, so I point out that for those trying to swim like them(stroke and cadence) this is what they do. Others dont see this, and are trying to pass along that pool swimming is the same as OW swimming racing, it is not. The training is the pool is similar to what distance swimmers would do, just a very abbreviated plan in time and yardage to what they would be doing for pool swimming only..Throw on a wetsuit and sit in a draft and things change dramatically in how your stroke should look..

We really need a like button

I see time being a big issue listed here and any other venue where swimming is concerned, yet I see a lot of triathletes (most even) that do these 1,500-2,000 meter workouts. The major time sink in swimming is driving to the pool, getting changed, getting a lane, getting out, showering, driving back to work or home, etc. If I'm getting wet, I'm putting at least 4k in. It just makes sense. The mobilization is the real time sink. The other major time sink is sitting at the wall. Use a 50m recovery swim in lieu of a 1 minute break, and keep rest within sets to less than 15 seconds and keep your main set at around 2k. It's hard, but you get faster.

Agree 100%, swimming is swimming, however I think there is one thing that seems to have been ignored in this whole thread which is the total lack of flexibility almost all adult onset swimmers have.

I'm a reasonable swimmer now (last provincials I was 56.8/2.04 SCM). I started in my early 20s, and focused far to much initially on technique. Working with some excellent coaches it was amazing how little they focused on technique and how much on just steady hard swimming.

Now in my mid 30's, training 3/wk (10-12k) I've actually found the biggest improvement coming from adding in a balanced mobility and strength training program. At masters provincials I was able to PB my 50 fr, and was close on my 100, while doing less volume then previous years.. this was mostly driven by work/life/shoulder injury precluded significant volume.

My observation looking at adult onset swimmers is most have awful balance/flexibility/core awareness. When I started doing shoulder/thoracic mobility testing a year ago I couldn't do a seated wall angel without my lumbar spine bowing out, and could barely get my elbows past my ears.. lets not even talk balancing in a tripod position. Working on this I think has made a huge difference to my balance/stroke in the pool as I don't snake on entry, have far better rotation etc..
I think that volume is important, but having done that route and making improvements, I now also think that mobility and body control is very very important if you wanna become a fast swimmer.

I won't argue that doing sprint 25's (which is ALL I do to work on 100 free speed) isn't a great way to get better at a 2.4 mile swim. But, structured properly, even 75's can improve your long distance pace. I swam a helluva 1.2 open water race a couple years back when my sole training focus was 100, 200, and 400/500 free pool racing, and my workouts were all 25's, 50's, and 75's. Why? Because a set of 24x75's at 400/500 race pace on +/- 20 seconds rest has a huge aerobic component, and was about as long in duration as that 1.2 mile swim.

There's a lot of up- and down-distance carryover with swim training, especially when you start working at races 400m and longer. Get yourself faster at the 800m/1000y free, and I all but guarantee you'll get faster at every distance from 200y to 2.4 miles. And you can get better at the 800/1000 free with 90% of your workouts centered around repeats of 100's. No triathlete has the time to do the kind of work it takes to actually optimize their swim for 2.4 miles. You're better off to mimic the training for 800/1000 and let the up-distance effect work for you, than to try do 1/4 of a "proper" 2.4 mile-focused workout. Just sprinkle in a little bit of longer stuff towards the end of the cycle, to be sure you have the proper IM-distance specific pacing down.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Just to be clear. My main activity is swimming. It is complimented by some weights, some time on the rowing machine and recently a bit of biking. All in all everything else on a given week may add up to the swim hours. But let's call a big week 10 hours of swimming and 7 hrs of everything else. On the "everything else" (specifically biking), if I wanted and had time, I could add another 5 hrs of riding and be up at 22 hrs and be OK. I would not be able to add 5 hrs to a big 10 hrs swim week and not really feel the accumulated fatigue across life in general.

In any case, today I completed my 4th day in a row of 6K+ swimming. It's almost like yesterday was a hump day, because with 4 days done, I FEEL like I could do 7 straight, however, I can't make it to a pool the next 2 days anyway. Very much like when I have gone on Alps biking camps. Day 1 and 2 for 6+ hrs in the saddle are tough but doable. Day 3 is a bit of a disaster for the legs....then by day 4 you kind of get in 'grand tour mode' and the body settles into a daily large load and recovery cycle and suddenly you can keep going on and on.

I may just give a 15 hrs swim week a shot. If I look back at my last 7 days it was 32K over 11ish hours in 6 swims, and there was a day off in there due to travel and a red eye flight. I think 15 hrs of swimming may be in the realm of possibility. Maybe I will give it a month before trying that block. Timing will be good to do it at the end of October before winter swim meets start in November. I also feel that I MAY have made some techincal breakthroughs in the last 4 days covering 25+km but let's see.

I think, for me, an optimal weekly swim program would look like:

3 days -- 45 minutes each -- warmup, 30x50@1:00, warmdown
2 days -- 90 minutes each -- conventional masters practice + 30 minutes of 200's or 300's (aerobic pace w/ little rest).

The 50's days are to build stroke strength, aerobic capacity, and stroke memory. The 90 minute days are building endurance.

Edit: That's not that much time in the pool.

sample...


AM Heats
1500m main warm up
Race 200m Free
warm down - 1000m
warm up for 100 Fly - 400
Race 100m Fly
Warm Down 600 (should do more but not enough time)
Race 4x100m Free
Warm Down 1000
5200m

PM Finals

1200m main warm up
Race 200m Free
warm down - 1000m
warm up for 100 Fly - 200
Race 100m Fly
Warm Down 400 (should do more but not enough time)
Race 4x100m Free
Warm Down 1200

4400m

I just look over at the sinking legs in the next lane...

or when I share a lane and they are doing 500s or 1000s and visibly annoyed when I am doing mile pace 100s. One lady actually asked me why I did so many "sprints" one day ... my set was 30x100 holding 1:11s as 5k prep... the look on her face when I said it was my 5k pace was priceless.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Yes, I've been asked more than once "why do you only do sprints?" when I'm doing something 20ish x 100's on 1:35 at 1000 race pace. Um, those aren't sprints, people. 25's on :30? Those are kinda sprints. 25's on 2:00, no breath, straight-arming the recovery, trying to hold sub :13.00? Now, those are sprints!

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

What is your 1 mile time please?

Well, that's what Grant Hackett did mainly...50s, 100s and 200s. You can get really fit doing justs 50s, 100s and 200s in training.

Yeah for sure. More than one way to skin a cat. I guess I see a lot of MOP/BOP swimmers squad swimming do the stereotypical 10 x 100m main set or whatever, they swim 3 times a week, come race day they bimble round the course and come out the swim breathing out their arse, then struggle for the first portion of the bike. Even decent bikers struggle. Perhaps for the weaker swimmers, doing 50s and 100s isn't as beneficial as say a main set with 5 x 400. Obviously mix it up with some speed work. I reckon you get an average tri swimmer, get them doing a main set of 400s or 500s, they would really struggle. And if they struggle with that, they'll struggle come race day when they have to swim 3.8km.