Haven’t we been over this before? In short, increasing swim fitness, generally speaking, has benefits that extend beyond just the swim legof the race.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Yes.


No.


This applies to all distances of triathlon.

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

I'll disagree here with my little knowledge.

You should always try to improve your swim, as was mentioned before, because it will play out over all of the disciplines. However, it is "more beneficial" (not the right wording, i'd use "easiest time savings") to work on bike and run giving you better "time savings". So yeah, working on the bike and run will yield better time gains/savings...but ignoring the swim shouldn't be the mindset.

Most likely the swim will either be cancelled or shorted. Triathlon swims are no more that dip your foot in and splash water on your face so I would work more on the bike and run.

I think you should swim more because you enjoy swimming. If you don’t enjoy it, may be duathlons?

It's a continuing and endlessly debated conundrum.

For what it's worth go back and read all the threads on Lionel Sanders and his trials and tribulations about the swim. Lots of people giving him advice about how his swim will be the secret to his success. Because the swim matters, but only for pros............maybe.

It can be argued that increasing your swim ability translates to the other two disciplines. In a way that's true, because you don't drag yourself out of the water, gasp your way to the bike and spend the first ten minutes trying to get air into your lungs and blood to your legs. For a long time, within my age group no one who beat me in the swim, ever beat me to the finish (I'm not talking about winning, just placing). Then along came someone who could and did, both ( because they could also run).and they always win. They did it by learning to swim. They currently, hold the AG record at Kona. And the final piece, for them, was learning to swim, fast.

So you takes your pick Picking up between 2 and 6 minutes is a given when you learn to swim (and that's in an Olympic), multiply the distance and you multiply the time, as you go up in distance, because swimming speed is constant in practically every race. Even in a tough swim course, with waves or currents, the increase in speed, over a poorer swimmer, is constant That isn't always true in the other two, especially the run. The longer the race, the more you need left in your tank. If you are swimming over 40 minutes as a MOP HIM competitor, you have left 10 minutes on the table. The same 10 minutes is 3kph speed difference or the better part of a minute difference, per mile on the run. Those are big numbers to find if you are already at your limit.

And the funny thing is, swimming only requires technique. Not that muscle, not that much aerobics, just good technique. If a 60lb, 10 year old (of either sex) can beat you (and they can) then you have to understand it's about technique. You already have the muscle, just train it. It could be the easiest, cheapest, 10 minutes you will ever find.

Best of luck.

Sorry, it's def NOT just all about technique. That used to be the biggest swim myth out there, that's fortunately been gradually debunked here on ST (thank god.)

These 10 year old swimmers who smoke triathletes are not joe-average random swimmers. They are the ones who have the most natural aptitude for it, are clearly good at it enough to keep at it and not go to other things, and have usually been swimming years even before age 10, often in youth squads. And the ones that can beat even a lousy middling adult swimmer like myself, are the ones that train really freaking hard - harder than I do in swim training as a motivated adult (I've seen it, it's for real.)

All the stories you hear of ex-comp swimmers who take gobs of time off, or maintain fast swimming on like <4k swimming per week, are the same caliber of talent as the runners who can run sub 18 5ks on under 30 mpw or run sub3 marathons on <20mpw. (Some dude here on ST runs a 3:00 on 11mpw!)

I do think that the swim is super important despite the seemingly small time gains, and I actually think it's even more important for an AGer than the pros (who tend to be already pretty darn good at swimming). For the unprepared AGer, it's not about the time you lose during the swim, it's the time you lose on the bike/run as a consequence of getting out of the swim gassed. AGers hugely underestimate this all the time (me included) and then ask why they couldnt run/bike as well as they expected even though they 'didn't go hard on the swim', and turns out they were really light on the swim training and thus it takes a lot more out of them than expected.

As below average swimmer, below average cyclist and bottom 2% runner... This is my opinion.

Swim training isn't a waste.
While it might only be 3-6mins in a 70.3 from a pure time on the clock perspective, the purpose of good swim training isn't for you to be first out of the water. The idea of good swim training is so that you can be more comfortable and cruise the swim, so that you have more in the tank at the start of the bike.
I have caught up with people while walking the back half of a full, who on a good day run a stand alone marathon in sub3:30's, and I pass them while walking, all because they didn't put in the bike training. The same is true for the swim, being stronger and faster might only net you a few minutes overall, but having the confidence to not have to smash yourself just to race cutoff for the swim is much more important. Being able to watch the next wave go past and jump on a set of feet and get a tow for a few extra minutes, because you had the extra speed on tap may make a little bit more time back. You will get out of the water fresher, and with that boost from knowing you are already setting a good pace, instead of knowing that you are 10mins down on FOP of your AG, and you haven't even put shoes on.

Trust me, after having swims over the 40min mark (I think there was a 48min swim in a 70.3 at one point), the first time I hit the sand in 33mins was amazing. Running on so much adrenaline, I then knocked out my fastest T1 time at that race (I have raced it 5 times). [Unfortunately, 4 flats later, the bike did not go my way, and another 6h30m race followed :(]

And it has been said by the commentators for many years. "You cannot win a tri in the water, but you can lose it."

Quoted for truth!!! I've seen lots of 10 yr old swimmers who can't swim for sh*t, as I watch them every afternoon as I run on the T-mill overlooking the indoor pool. This is about 99% vs 1% who just catch right on and are swimming 1:10 for 100 yd free at age 10.

---

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

You realize that talent has nothing to do with this discussion, right? It’s not about talent, it’s about making the most of what you’ve got.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I am a terrible swimmer and I never get out of the water gassed. I feel that the biggest problem on the swim portion (for me) is that I'm not able to push myself in the same way as I do on the bike and the run. My HR will typically be in the mid 130´s for a half, whereas the bike and the run will be in the 160´s.

But I haven't found a way to get comfortable pushing in the pool either, so I bet there's a correlation between the two :)

Then you aren’t a terrible swimmer. You might not be fast (or you might be, I don’t know), but if you can complete the swim and not have to recover from the effort, then you are a good swimmer.

Fast and good aren’t the same thing.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I didn't know that. Thanks for clarifying. Slow, not bad. I like it.

Im the same. I can do a 42min comfortably and almost fall asleep, but to push hard enough to save another 5 mins would leave me gassed and struggling, not worth it at this stage..

Wow, some similar 40+ HIM swimmers, nice to have some company. I've gone from 48/49mins down to 41/42, but I'm on that plateau now and settled there. I swim 3 times a week - around 6-8km, can't do much more than that.

---

My race site: https://racesandplaces.wixsite.com/racesandplaces

The talent factor.is exactly why people confuse 10 year old fast club swimmers with technique related gains in swimming. It's at the core of why this swim myth of fast 10 year old club swimmers = every adult can swim that fastwithkut serious swim conditioning is a lie

You should see my.other thread about trying out hard water running to help acclimate to breathing hard against water resistance pushing back on he ribcage.

It's just a theory of mine but I've def noticed it helps for us runbikers who feel weirdly constrained for effort in the water even after accounting for cooling.

Also, the reality that your swim muscular endurance lags your runbikers muscular endurance is a major factor, but I think the breathing issue is very underestimated.

The swimmers will say yes,......I was a college swimmer and I say no.

Triathlons are a different animal that is a time distance math problem when you boil it down. Once you have developed your swim ability and some endurance it takes 10,000's of meters to swimming to get incrementally faster on what is the shortest leg distance and time wise of any race. Do you have time in your life to swim that much?

You have distance on your side to make up time on the bike and run. If you are limited in training time.....swim MOP, bike and run fast and you can make up a ton of time. If time is the limiter.....you get more bang for your buck focusing on the bike and the run.

How do you know when you've developed your swim ability and it's time to heavily increase your training? I swam my first lap in a pool in December and was around 2:15/100yd for 10x100 intervals once I was able to complete the distance. After 2-3x a week over the last 6 months I'm now at a consistent 1:45/100yd. Do i swim maintenance twice a week or keep pushing?

Reading through your note, I have to disagree, with some of it.

There's no doubt that some 10 year olds are not joe average, but I'm not talking about the 10 year old 1:10 swimmers. Because they would give a pro trouble, let alone an AG competitor. Reality again is that a 1:40 swimmer is way above average in Triathlon. Go ahead and pick any result on the IM pages and see where a 1:40 swimmer ends up. That's a 25 minute 1500m swimmer, 32 min half and 1:04 whole. There are finishers in the Pro ranks that don't beat that. A 2:00 min 100m swimmer would go 38 minutes in a HIM, 1:16 in a full IM, againwell above the average. So when someone tells me they can't swim 2:00 minutes per 100 and they are spending hours in the pool, my response is they are either wasting their time or they are including the time they spend in the shower and changing room, talking about their technique.

I have watched enough swim practices to know that the people who don't improve never change their stroke, never improve their technique, day in, day out, week in, week out, and so on. They do the same thing, the same way, forever. It's comfortable. And we know what that is the definition of. I have watched Triathlon swim coaches, all ex-competitive swimmers, often Olympic calibre, just not bother, with the slower lanes, because the swimmers won't change, refuse to change. I have also seen adult learners go from 2:30+ minutes to under 1:30 in the space of a single winter swim program. Moving up lanes from slowest to fastest. Funny thing, they asked question of everyone, and not once do they say, I can't or I won't.

As far as I am concerned if you are below the 50% range in the finish times, saying you can't improve your technique to swim faster is just giving up. I have never seen anyone with good technique, in the slow lane, unless they are in the slow lane of a good Master Swim Club. As for it being debunked on ST......🤣.

By the way, that's what I say about my running, when I really know it's because I don't train for that properly......but this year I will (sure!) 😁

I'm not talking 10 year olds who swim 1:10. I'm talking any club 10 year old swimmer - by definition, that is someone who has a natural aptitude enough that they want to go to swim practice year after year and/or their parents have recognized the talent for them to do so. It simply sucks way too much as a parent to drag your kid to swim practice daily for years when they don't want to be there - it's not like some other sports where you can be on the competitive club team with 1x/wk club practice.

And again, I think you're discounting how hard these slow AGers try to improve their technique. EVERY AGer tries to improve their technique for 'free easy speed'. But of course, they don't swim enough volume to ingrain the good habits, nor do they swim hard enough to really make substantitive changes.

But it's not correct at all to say that most middling/BOP AG triathletes simply ignore technique. They ALL obsess over technique - to their absolute detriment. I was literally one of these swimmers, with everyone on ST and fish forums saying technique, technique technique, forget about swimming hard until your technique is perfect, you're wasting your time with volume, blah blah blah. Made zero progress until I buckled down, accepted that a hammerfest is needed to improve no questioned asks, and haven't looked back since.

The lack of swim hammering and volume is the reason those nongifted typical MOP/BOP triathletes don't improve, NOT because they're not interested in form improvement.

The lack of swim hammering and volume is the reason those nongifted typical MOP/BOP triathletes don't improve,

And you wonder why I say that talent is overrated.....

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

It's not overrated. It's the absolute reason why the fish (talented folks) on this forum as well as on swim forums still routinely say 'you don't have to swim a ton, focus all on technique and the fitness comes naturally", because when they hammer the workouts regularly, they go sub 1:15, whereas us mortals hammer the same amount and can't even go sub 1:30 (or even sub 2:00 for the true BOPers).

I absolutely guarantee that if it were truly a level genetic playing feel, the comments from the fish would look a ton different than they do compared to the pack. It's no different from when the gifted runners on letsrun (often 15:xx HS runners doing it on <40mpw) make fun of anyone who can't run sub 18 on no training because it's such a joke for them to do that. It's just in swimming you have a very convenient excuse for your speed that makes you feel good about yourself and helps validate your self-accomplishments - 'its the technique!!" when in reality, it's probably a lot more about your parents.

I keep saying it but I'll say it again, we could tie one of your (JasoninHalifax, but any competitive swimmer would likely work as well) arms behind your back, and you'd still finish in the top 15% in most AG triathlon swims. Hard to argue that it's all technique when there's an arm tied behind your back.

the problem is a majority of people will need a good swim coach to instruct them on how EXACTLY to improve their technique otherwise they're left to youtube and ST with a bunch of random people with often opposing views on how to improve one's swim (hammer vs technique, work on your kick vs don't work on your kick, open water vs pool etc.) There is no where near this level of confusion for cycling and running. So it's completely understandable IMO for age groupers to get frustrated and just get in the pool and swim.