Barry: No offense intended, but I don't need any running form advice because running comes naturally to me. I'm not saying this to brag because I soak up all the advice I can get on swimming form looking for all the help I can get. So far, not so good.

My point is the good swimmers just naturally have "it" and probably don't understand why the rest of us struggle so much in the water. The same goes for the good runners for which running comes natural.

Now golf is a different story. The pros seem to be constantly looking for a new swing coach or what have you. I could use a little help with my golf game if you have some good videos.

Barry, this may be a silly question, but is this form realistically repeatable over a marathon? Or is this more for the 5-10K races?

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"I can endure more pain than anyone you've ever met. That's why I can beat anyone I've ever met." Steve Prefontaine, Without Limits

Funny post

Seems to be working for Mickelson...

Phil?

http://www.iaaf.org/news/newsId=35546,printer.html

"Templeton reveals that for the past six months Songok and Choge have been working with Australian coach Rob Higley who describes his work as “improvement of structure and movement”.

Simply put he has improved the Kenyans’ running efficiency with a series of biomechanical drills. "

If this is any indication of how funny the statement above was...

Yeah...he won the biggest golf payday of the year this past weekend after very recently starting to work with Butch Harmon (former coach to Tiger Woods, Greg Norman, et. al).

No question about that! And he probably weighs less than me too! :)

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__________________________
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Yes, I too am on Facebook. And LinkedIn. And Twitter. Which begs the question - do I exist in the physical world? Do I?

I remember doing those in XC in middle school! I didn't realize there was a point to them though... I thought the coach just enjoyed laughing at us do them. Appartenly she must have actually known what she was doing with us :P

fun fun fun. except the hurdles - I'm supposed to avoid those. and steeplechase.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

You can probably get away with soup can hurdles...

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

can we make soup-can steeplechase, too?

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Sure, just don't slip on the alphabets...


How come Campbells' Alphabet soup is identical to their Vegetable soup, yet always costs more?

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

How come Campbells' Alphabet soup is identical to their Vegetable soup, yet always costs more?
_________________________

You are paying for the knowlege!

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

My point is the good swimmers just naturally have "it" and probably don't understand why the rest of us struggle so much in the water. The same goes for the good runners for which running comes natural.
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I'll argue that good swimmers/runners naturally develop it....through experience...and drills. It's no different that piano lessons. Some learn quicker than others.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Look at the video in post number 7. You have to watch the whole thing, but right around the 5 minute mark you see Alan Webb jogging a victory lap at ~9 minutes a mile. The form is still the same with him standing tall (but not necessarily completely vertical), picking up the feet, leading with the knee, and stepping over minature soup cans.


However, keep in mind that ALL of the drills are overexagerations of what you will actually do when you run. If you look at the videos, you'll notice that no one actually lifts their knees has high as the guy does in the high knee drill.

What is most important during a marathon is being relaxed. In theory, through doing these drills over and over again, you will teach your body good form. Then, when you are in a race and want to go faster, it will natuarlly do whatever it can to go faster.......but now it has in its bag of tricks the muscle memory of "proper form".....however, it will only kick the butt or lift the knee as much as necessary.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

So in theory, how can an activity that takes up maybe 1 to 5% of your total training time impact so powerfully in changing your movement patterns? Or are you advocating that you do drills for a substancial part of your training time?

Next you're going to tell me that you have to practice "good form" (whatever that is) in all of your runs. Sure... but if you do that, what are the drills for again?

Lastly, where is the connection between "good form" and running economy? I have never seen it proved and there are no awards for those that run pretty.

BarryP wrote about a lot of other ideas for running and training for the run leg of the triathlon before he wrote about running drills and that means, to me at least, that drills aren't as important as just getting out there and running, but they do offer some benefits.

Slowman wrote an article that I thought was pretty interesting about technique, The High Cost of Good Form,(http://www.slowtwitch.com/...corn/costofform.html), perhaps you've read it. I like what he wrote, and if I wasn't able to paste the link I would spend some time paraphrasing it here.

At the end of the day, I think good technique won't make anyone slower, but it only goes so far.

I also think that drills won't help a runner who has functional issues with their core.

I would probably run the last 10% of any tempo run a few seconds slower if I didn't change my focus from how much I was hurting to thinking about how I was running.

This is where drills are useful for me--I do them a few times a week so I can check my form over and over when I'm running.

"So in theory, how can an activity that takes up maybe 1 to 5% of your total training time impact so powerfully in changing your movement patterns? Or are you advocating that you do drills for a substancial part of your training time?"
*************

I don't know. I'd be interested to hear your answer, unless you mean to tell me that your athletes swim one arm strokes, breath to the opposite side....more than 5% of their total training time.
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"Next you're going to tell me that you have to practice "good form" (whatever that is) in all of your runs. Sure... but if you do that, what are the drills for again?"
*************

Actually I wan't going to say that, but I will refer to my previous swimming analogy.
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Lastly, where is the connection between "good form" and running economy? I have never seen it proved and there are no awards for those that run pretty.
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Yet pretty runners seem to win all the time.

I can't currently give you an answer that you'll like. I am, however, doing some digging for scientific studies. If I find them, I'll show them to you. It is entirely possible that the T&F world is off on this one. It won't be the first time.

With regard to percentages of time spent on form drills, cdanrun nailed it. They certainly take a much lower priority than most other aspects of training.....at least in this man's opinion, for whatever that's worth. I've heard some argue that time would be better spent doing swimming drills instead, just as you and I have advocated doing SBR instead of lifting weights. However, I'll contend that in the middle of my run I don't have a pool.....so I might as well do some running drills while I'm dressed for them.

The faster the race and the worse the athlete's form, the more important the drills become.....but I can only answer from experience.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

The best all around running method is Chi Running. check it out at www.chirunning.com. It's smiple, easy to do, and easy to learn.

This one's a bit grainy but has a lot of also good footage of the current world record holder in the mile.

http://www.youtube.com/...vCsj7eJKKA&eurl=

Interesting to note that pretty much all of them have "good form" until they are dead tired, like when the first pacer drops off after the second lap. You can see a dramatic shift in his form coming around the corner where it's obvious that he's hurting. I'd wager the speed is a result of the form, not the reverse. :)

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No, those that win all the time seem pretty. They determine what is good form.

No, those that win all the time seem pretty. They determine what is good form.
_____________________________________

And it is completely random. Got it.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

If anyone is still following this thread, I got this from my college T & F coach. Again, it is something that we may look back 30 years from now and say, "remember when everyone thought that was a good idea?" I like them and seem to notice the benefits in my running and of those I've coached.
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Re: form drills

"They are recommended at almost every clinic or school that I go to,
including the USATF school. The drills are exaggerations of the
movements needed for running, hopefully improving strength,
flexibility,
and range of motion. I'm not sure about the scientific research. I do
think they are part of the puzzle."

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Thanks for the post Barry. Good stuff. On my run this morning I was running right with those chasingKimbia guys. OK, it was in my mind but it felt great, although the cool, overcast weather helped aslo. They dropped me big-time on the last hill though. :-(

Thanks for the post Barry. Good stuff. On my run this morning I was running right with those chasingKimbia guys. OK, it was in my mind but it felt great, although the cool, overcast weather helped aslo. They dropped me big-time on the last hill though. :-(
______________________________

Actually where I live, you CAN run with Kenyans. I never have, but I've seen them occasionally on my way to work. They like to show up to local races and take all the prize money.....for jogging.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485