Congrats on qualifying for Worlds. If by some miracle I happened to qualified I would definitely have a "just happy to be going who do I write the check to" attitude (like when I qualified for Boston), but aren't you curious what you get for your "Team Support Services" fee and wouldn't you be pissed if it just turns out to be a way for USAT to extort money from you?

---

-------------
"Knowledge is good" - Emil Faber

Monty: Your experiences with racing and travel, especially as it relates with USAT, far exceed mine: You have had a basis to compare. As a result, my perspective is very different. For example, I look at the budgit for this trip on the same basis as if I were to go overseas for a m-dot race- which I actually looked at. Up to this point, there really has been no difference in what I would have to pay, Uniforms included. I would have probably got a new kit anyway. Frankly, I really like the Orca gear. I probably would have got that kit anyway. It fits well, is good quality, and I have recieved it in time to wear it in a race. Regarding the issue of sponsorship, you, because of your greater experience, have more contacts for sponsorship. It is not such an issue for me. When I was racing sailboats on an Olympic basis, attempting to gain sponsorship was such a bad experience, I won't try again!

With all this being said, I do have a problem if there have been behind the scenes deals done that net USAT, or anyone else for that matter, money that is not due.

I think if services paid, have resulted in services rendered, then I'm satisified with the experience.

Just my perspective, from someone who has limited experience with the whole Team USA program.

<Historically it was not uncommon for him to get hosed by athletes who show up with train wrecks as bikes, he overhauls them and on occassion is stuck with an unpaid tab. >


I don"t doubt that your friend got screwed by his association with the national team. I believe Dan had a very clean and simple idea for hosting a team mechanic. Just bring in a local person or two, USAT takes some of that money we pay them, and we put them up and feed them. After that, each athlete who brings a bike in, pays the guy by the hour for his labor. No pay, no get bike back. Simple, and those that use the service, pay the most for it. That way, the rest of us that work on our own bikes, don't pay for those that do...It can work the same way for massage too. No reason to fly people in when there is perfectly good talent locally.

I think that you are a very typical national team person. Enjoy the expirence, and just pay the price. It's all very reasonable for the whole package. My only beef is that if USAT takes in $25000 for the Orca deal, and another $40,000 in $100 fees from each of us, why not put some of that money back into helping us out. If they took in none of this money, then I would be just like you, pay my fair share, and have fun. It won;t ruin my race expirence, but I do have to speak up about it...Someone has to...

Strider: The issue of "Team Support Service" fee is an interesting one. In my simplistic attempt to rationalize it, I view the $300 as an entry fee. As a basis for comparison, what would an m-dot race cost me? It would be more, without the advantages that the $300 for Worlds give me. If I have a problem, whether it is mechanical, or health related, there will be people there to help me. People that I trust more than looking in an Austrian phone book for a Dr, or mechanic. If those services cost me, at least I know that they will be provided from someone that is qualified. I feel that I'm still coming out ahead.

As you can tell I really have attempted to look at this whole experience as a positive. I have put this competition as high on the priority list as possible, and do have the attitiude, as you put it: "just happy to be going, who do I write the check to." I really like that perspective.

D_B

D_B, I wish you all the best for your training and racing. But perhaps your simplistic attitude as you put it, should take a back seat in this discussion. You appear to not want to look at what's really going on behind the scenes here, and following this thread will only upset you. Let those of us on the front lines do the fighting, and later you will just be able to take advantage of the benifits we have won. It is the way of the world, some are fighters, others followers. We need them both.....

[reply]I was referring to my age group (45-49), since that's the one I'm most familiar with. I'm looking at the top guys from last years race, and I don't see too many returning. [/reply]

I'd noticed the same thing, was mulling over going to Kansas in an attempt to get a roll-down.. heh. But after this thread, and given that it's a pure vanity project for me anyway, I think I'll bag it. Though it's probably the best shot I'll ever get at making the team..

---

"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

Like you said, the roll down this year will go far. Don't let the fact that it is going to be a crappy, god awful hot, humid race deter you. Suck it up for the trip to Hawaii, that's where the payoff comes. If I had not been already qualifyied, I would force myself to go. Just too bad it has to be that way. We should be dying to go to our national championship, not dreading it.

Monty: I think that if there are deals going on that are not above board, well then they should be addressed. That is way beyond my viewpoint. To be honest, I'm not sure where the $40,000 number is coming from. I thought there were only about 140 athletes going to worlds. If my math is correct that would only be $14000. Don't get me wrong, $14000 is still a chunk of change that we could have one hell of a party with!

BTW: I hope that I have the chance to meet you over there!

Monty: You really don't know me well enough to think that I'm not a fighter !!! Passive is not an adjective that would describe my personality--LOL!! I have experience in other sports of running major national competitons, and responsibility for directing all competitions on a regional basis. I have taken positions as an Athlete, and a representative of the NGB. I'm just not in the position that I can fight all the battles that I see. But you are correct that I have directed my energy in this battle to fight the competition and not the USAT!

I am signed up to go to the nationals, but, I think I am going to pass, even though I can not get my money back.

I first was excited when I thought I had "qualified". But, when I found out anyone could go just by paying for a gold membership, well.

Plus, being a californian, I have no idea what humidity is. And I do not fly on planes so I would have to drive and it would be about a 2 week trip.

So, I think I will just do the folsom international that weekend instead. I have not ego into this stuff.

Dave

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Monty,

It's funny how everyone's an expert. Do you work for USAT? I have checked their website several times and you don't seem to be on the official employee list. So if that's the case, how do you have any idea of what the clothing deal is between Orca and USAT? My guess is you don't and everything you've said is what you'd like to believe or maybe it's just something you made up to get a rise out of the group of people that read this. I checked on the ITU rule regarding uniform logos, because the world championship is an ITU race, not a USAT race and the rule clearly says:

"Age Group Categories: Age Group competitors participating at ITU World Championships

at any distance may wear any uniform style, provided that their Country name appears on the

front upper chest in a size three (3) times larger than any other sponsor logo. There is no

limitation on the number or position of sponsor logos for Age Group Competitors, provided

they do not obscure the Country name. The format for the country name (language, spelling,

abbreviation, etc.) is at the discretion of the National Federation. Arial is the preferred type

face."

I think I'm going to start making things up about something I know nothing about because it sounds like a good time. Hey, I heard that the ironman in Kona isn't going to happen this year because the entire island is now under water.

Yeah, i like this.

"To be honest, I'm not sure where the $40,000 number is coming from. I thought there were only about 140 athletes going to worlds."


try more like 400.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan: I think that we might be talking about two different World Championships. I'm refering to the Long Course Worlds in Denmark next week. You are probably refering to the Worlds in HI. Obviously more people want to go to HI for a shorter race than to Denmark for a longer race! Sorry for the confusion.

D_B

"how do you have any idea of what the clothing deal is between Orca and USAT?"

monty's estimate is my estimate, and it's based on historical norms. the going rate has been $25,000 , and charging a fee to be Team USA supplier goes back not just years, but more than a decade. and whether it's been edgewear, speedo, saucony, whomever, there seems almost annually to be both a quality question and a delivery question. so, historically, de soto has had to come in (probably 3 years out of every 4), and supply as a last minute white knight, and at half the price to the athlete, and with better apparel.

so monty's view is, why keep trying to make this $25,000? why not jsut be happy with the $400,000 every year USAT makes in profits, and stop trying to bilk your long term customers? why not just let de soto and one other AMERICAN supplier make similar appearing kits, give them each 3 year deals, and have them each offer their kits to Team USA members? whoever makes the bettter kit, at a better value, and makes it on time, will get the better sales volume out of these several hundred athletes.

monty's point, and mine, is that the federation ought not to keep bilking their repeat customers just because they can. first it's supplying substandard uniforms, late, at inflated pricesl, because the federation gets $25,000 from the supplier. then it's supplying substandard travel packages at inflated prices, because the federation gets $10,000 from the travel agent. then it's charging Team USA members $40,000 for team services it doesn't perform. then it's making everyone go to misssouri or shreveport for a substandard nationals venue so the federation can pocket $30,000 in a site fee.

all these things have happened in the past. some continue to happen today. maybe it doesn't bother you, because you're not personally afffected. please excuse those that are personally affected for using this forum board to voice their displeasure.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hey Monty, can you post the prices of the uniforms? or if you want, email it to me tai@taigraphx.com. I got the first two emails but neither myself or anybody else I personally know ever got the email with the actual uniform prices and order sheet. This whole thread I've been assuming that the prices are retail, which if they are is I agree a rip-off. But I've seen one post know where it sounds like the uniforms are at whosale, which doesn't seem all that bad. Free is better, but whosale I can deal with...

So which is it??

And hey, although the swim course is absolute crap and the run is insanely boring, the bike is fun, the location is fun (I live a mile from the course) and it is NOT HOT and HUMID here compared to the East Coast right now. Just did and Xterra in FL last weekend and ended up on the ground with 1/2 mile to go watching my 2nd place float away from me as I chatted with the EMTs for 30 min or so. So fricken HOT!

Current conditions here in central NJ:


Fair
100°F
Feels Like
108°F
Updated Jul 27 03:00 p.m. ET

UV Index: 6 High
Wind: From WSW at 17 mph
Humidity: 39%
Pressure: 29.75 in.
Dew Point: 71°F
Visibility: 9.0 miles

100 degrees, heat index 108, 17mph winds. I'm so looking forward to my brick tonight...

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Here in New Zealand we also have to book our air travel and accomodation for the world champs through the official travel agency as well as buy the official uniform. The NZ federation cuts these deals with these companies just like ITU does for their events.

I will be racing in the ITU age group champs and hope to get on the podium. I will be making an effort to expose my sponsors (and long term friends and supporters) in some way during and after the event and don't want to be "banned" for it.

I do appreciate that the event producers and governing bodies put on events for us and do need to have funds to operate, but these sorts of methods aren't the way to do it and never have been. I'd say the way the federations force the age groupers to comply with uniform and travel requirements has been one of the main sore points with the age groupers for nearly 20 years.

There should be some allowance for individual sponsorships on racing apparel but still have a team uniform in concept. My suggestion is for the federation of each country to have a specific clothing pattern and look and give that to the individuals who qualify for the teams to world champs. Let each individual come up with their own apparel. It won't all be exactly the same as each othe for sure, and there will be some rogues who try to ruffle a few feathers but in general there will be a good amount of uniformity and the people racing will feel a lot better about it. .

[snip]

traitor. just because you live in that limey country doesn't mean you have to race for it. if you had an ounce of patriotism you'd be getting shat on by america's federation. i'm still PO'd at NZ for not letting our navy spread radiation like a rainbird sprinkler over auckland harbor.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

In order to qualify for the USA team I would have had to travel to the USA to qualify like all other Americans. To much time and money and significant other having a say in that........... But I will race under the USA banner in Kona. I have many loyalties to attend to these days...........:-)

As you are well aware loyalty is a personal characteristic I treasure.

Just a few things to add:

Other federations do not let athletes put their own sponsors on their uniforms. For expample, Denna Kastor did not have ASICS on her Nike uniform at the Olympics. Gymnasts are not allowed to put personal sponsors on their uniforms.

I do think USAT should help out those in the 20-24 AG and 25-29 Age Groups. Wave the user fee, reduced uniforms etc. Athletes in these age groups could end up being some of our nations best in a few years. Examples include: Julie Swail (overall age group world champ), Courtney Bennigston (20-24 AG medal) and Jessie Stensland (20-24 ag medal). I'm sure there are other examples out there as well. It is lame that some of the top athletes in these ag have to stay home for pure dollars and cents reasons.

I agree that the uniform prices should be at a good discount to the team members. I also agree that team members should be able to put any sponsor logos on their uniform that they want, provided it is within the ITU guidelines. The problem that I have is that a lot of the stuff that is already in place (the Orca deal for example) was put in place by the previous board and is in place for three years. Now we can try to correct, fix, undo things that need to be, but it kind of pisses me off that I am trying to do these things when you (Dan) were in place to correct these things last year before they happened again and left before it could be prevented from happening again. Bottom line though, I agree and there will be a lot of discussion about this over the next two days at the BOD meeting.

---

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

"100 degrees, heat index 108, 17mph winds. I'm so looking forward to my brick tonight... "

bike and swim, baby!

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------

"but it kind of pisses me off that I am trying to do these things when you (Dan) were in place to correct these things last year before they happened again"

as you might know, this deal NEVER came before the board (at least not before me). and i don't know that it should have come before the board. this is an executive decision, and the proper chief executive should make the proper decision, and i'm confident that in the main our ED, skip gilbert, will make the right decisions.

that said, i doubt this decision was made while i was on the board, because at that time saucony was clearly under contract with us as our apparel supplier, and that had not changed during my tenure, at least not to my knowledge.

i don't see how anyone at USAT could've done it while i was there, because we had no ED in place and we had no marketing agent in place, that is, we had no one doing ANY sponsor deals during my brief tenure on the board. when did this deal occur? who at USAT okay'd the deal?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So I was just emailed the price sheet for Orca uniforms for the long course national team. Assuming the short course choices are the same the selection and prices don't look bad at all. I'm a little disappointed that it's the mid-range Orca "Race" line instead of the Elite but thier race line is still really nice and will probably last longer than the elite anyways (for all those times we'll wear our team uniforms;). And as an added benefit, the race line is specially engineered to NOT prominantly display every last line of your package as is the Elite line. Cost is around 40% off retail, similar pricing to what you'd pay as an employee at retail store if you were to buy off the shelf.

according to the long course rule sheet, you can also put sponsors on as long as they are 1/3 the size of the main USA logo. No they cannont conflict with Orca, but for anyone sponsored out there, isn't this pretty much always the case. I'm guessing that Oakley would be pretty pissed if I screened Rudy Project on all the shirts they give me... Now it doesn't seem like Orca is really "sponsoring" the national team by the prices, but if you want to call giving USAT license to sell the apparel near cost sponsorship, then I guess they are.

I still haven't recieved the official short course uniform email but I don't see that much conflict with the prices quoted so far. I was under the assumption that we were paying full retail by some of the posts. Granted, free would be better but I doubt Orca or any of the tri companies would go for that based on the limited exposure and all the bad rap that the uniforms get every year. And although, I wouldn't have a problem forking out a few extra bucks in USAT dues to pay for the uniforms (I am on the team so hell yeah), but for joe shmoe who only joins USAT so he can do a couple of races, tosses the newsletter in the junk mail pile, and couldn't give a rats ass about USAT other than he needs it (the vast majority of USAT members it seems) he'd be a little pissed to say the least.

Now the $100 tacked on to the entry fee, that I don't understand or agree with at all.