Re: Lionel's encore?! [dfru] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 9:46

Post #51 of 199 (2437 views)

desert dude is a wind tunnel guy where you test yaw as well. don't get that on the track where you see hands high do really well. high speed low side wind, hands high good. big side wind, probably not so much.

From that perspective, something I've been thinking about is these new style extensions that support your whole forearm don't allow for a lot of in-ride adjustment. With regular extensions I could put my hands on top of the ends of the extensions (in a hands stacked position) for low yaw situations, but then grab each extension and rotate my grip outward to where my hands were basically below the extension in high yaw situations. This also worked as you need a better grip on the extensions in high side winds.

Re: Lionel's encore?! [dfru] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 9:47

Post #52 of 199 (2434 views)

I think DD said at pro speeds high hands are usually good aero wise

At age group speeds no so much. Where flat arms are better aero in most cases

Re: Lionel's encore?! [Sean H] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 9:53

Post #53 of 199 (2423 views)

Yeah, I know DD tests in the tunnel, and I know that Jim has done the alphamantis testing on the roads too. I don't know that their is a right answer - Vincent Luis did tunnel testing with a very aggressive mantis position (but...with the expensive uniqo (sp?) bar so...it wasn't going to change besides height) and I know Patrick Lange tests a lot too - and higher hands. Who knows haha.

Great point about the new bars - they do lock you in and limit changes in a lot of cases like the speedbar or uniqo etc... And using different hand positions - while simple - is kind of genius! Never thought about that with winds.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Re: Lionel's encore?! [FtStri] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 10:07

Post #54 of 199 (2396 views)

FtStri wrote:

lionel has won precisely zero of the biggest races in the sport. no Kona, no Frankfurt, no Roth, no 70.3 WC's, didn't win Daytona and however many times he says he'll either beat Jan or go home on a stretcher, he's not done it. he's also one of the weaker athletes technically, especially on the bike and has steadfastly refused to address that.

so to put him in the same bracket as the many who have walked the walk and won these top tier races over the last decade , rather than just talking it on youtube, is disrespectful to the work they've put in to achieve that. I'm not saying he's a terrible athlete, but to put him in with the best is laughable and disrespectful.

but as i said before, winning the soft field american races keeps the fanboys happy, claiming he always finishes on the podium.

and yes, if he wasn't such a clown, jumping from one crazy scheme to the next, his resume probably would be better.

Doubling down and being wrong is hilarious. The way this sport worked, before this year, outside of Kona every field was weak. (just race for points and not wins) And then the one year where it went to a win or get second qualification system we went straight into a pandemic. But hey, live in your fantasy world that Frankfort was somehow better than Arizona.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Re: Lionel's encore?! [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 10:37

Post #55 of 199 (2347 views)

TheStroBro wrote:

FtStri wrote:

'one of the best race resumes in the sport over the past decade'.

that's really quite disrespectful to the many who have actually raced and won many championship and upper end competitive level events over that period. Even Iden who has barely delved in long course yet already has a better race resume than lionel's last decade.

there's a reason he chose CdA over Tulsa, Copenhagen over Frankfurt, doesn't go anywhere near the 70.3 worlds, Roth etc etc.

repeatedly winning soft field races in north america certainly does keep the fanboys happy though.

Look at his resume. You won't find many results that aren't 1st or 2nd unless it is Kona. And only one person can win Kona. He is one of the most dominant Long Course athletes of this era. I don't know why people need to keep stating that he is at that level, but hey if the haters want to hate, fine.

But it does beg the question, if he didn't change everything all the time as he is prone to do, how much better would that resume be?

Your last question represents my position on Lionel.

Re: Lionel's encore?! [dfru] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 11:07

Post #56 of 199 (2301 views)

dfru wrote:

Plantlete wrote:

thatzone wrote:

Can that upward tilt on the bars lead to THAT much of a gain??

Jokes aside I’m surely entertained by this, but sincerely hope that POP is back in the legs otherwise will be another mental blow. That said I’m cheering for a great performance!

Can’t wait

All the pros are going with the ski bend aero bars like 51 Speed Shop. I'm not a fan.

The position appears to produce a very good power position. I do question aerodynamics. I suppose wind tunnel testing is verifying these positions.

I'm also not a proponent of having to slam the front end, but it's funny the evolution of position over a few years from slammed to super elevated. It makes you wonder. Personally comfort is a big factor and holding power. I know I prefer something in between. Everyone is different though, so I'm sure they have him optimized. I'd like to see the result. He said in the past he was never getting comfortable holding position and being fidgety during the Tri Battle. This may be a big improvement for him.

I know that Jim Manton from Ero-sports is in love with the mantis position (where Lionel was tested) and the position that was shown from Tuesday's velodrome session is slightly elevated from his previous position (I think) but hands are quite a bit higher. In Jim's recent interviews (Zwift Tri podcast for one) he was going on and on about how much faster the position was. Lionel looks very comfortable in that position, so hopefully that gives him more speed as well as comfort but we will see!

It's not a universally loved position - I believe that desert dude isn't a huge fan of it, but the thing I find best about higher hands is my comfort level is 100x better and that's got to be faster than lower hands and not able to hold position...

Comfort trumps aero every time. I think if the new position is more comfortable it will help him immensely. I can't wait to see the results

Re: Lionel's encore?! [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 13:57

Post #57 of 199 (2138 views)

ThailandUltras wrote:

[
Now,now,we all know that according to ST the only person who ever rides "the train" in races is Lange. Everyone else rides alone and in their own space away from all the other contenders. It is an established ST fact,. :-)
.

The difference isn't about participating in trains, but taking pulls. Until recently, including his Kona wins, Lange did not take pulls

Re: Lionel's encore?! [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 15:23

Post #58 of 199 (2068 views)

BigBoyND wrote:

ThailandUltras wrote:

[
Now,now,we all know that according to ST the only person who ever rides "the train" in races is Lange. Everyone else rides alone and in their own space away from all the other contenders. It is an established ST fact,. :-)
.

The difference isn't about participating in trains, but taking pulls. Until recently, including his Kona wins, Lange did not take pulls

.
.
Nobody is "required" to go to the front...That is part of his tactic as a runner which is why Macca tried to marshal the troops to ride the runners legs off back in the day..They just haven't been able to ride away from Lange.
.
.

Re: Lionel's encore?! [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 15:42

Post #59 of 199 (2038 views)

TheStroBro wrote:

Doubling down and being wrong is hilarious. The way this sport worked, before this year, outside of Kona every field was weak. (just race for points and not wins) And then the one year where it went to a win or get second qualification system we went straight into a pandemic. But hey, live in your fantasy world that Frankfort was somehow better than Arizona.

.
.
Lionel hasn't won an Ironman in four years but if you were to arrive at the sport as a newbie the constant hype would have you believe that he has won everything.Yes he has performed well in a bunch of races but he hasn't dominated anything except YouTube whereas all the other guys who have won multiple Ironman's in the last few years,in fast times, including regional championships are totally ignored. It is hilarious.
.
You love to throw the term "hater" around but that is just a cheap Kafka Trap to try and move the discussion away from the point at hand and that is, people are allowed to both, appreciate and follow Lionel's exploits as an elite triathlete while at the same time shake our collective heads at the rabid,one-eyed fans who feel the need defend some perceived personal attack on Lionel himself.For the millionth time,we are not talking about Lionel per se, but the fans who don't accept that Lionel himself says the same things about his place in the sport that we do.
.
If any other Kona podium guy had failed to win any Ironman, anywhere, in the four years since that podium performance,he would be written off as a has-been as far as Kona goes. Lionel is an exceptional talent but I fear he will go down in history as the greatest to never have won any of the majors, but that is sport.
.
.

Re: Lionel's encore?! [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 15:46

Post #60 of 199 (2023 views)

ThailandUltras wrote:

TheStroBro wrote:

Doubling down and being wrong is hilarious. The way this sport worked, before this year, outside of Kona every field was weak. (just race for points and not wins) And then the one year where it went to a win or get second qualification system we went straight into a pandemic. But hey, live in your fantasy world that Frankfort was somehow better than Arizona.

.
.
Lionel hasn't won an Ironman in four years but if you were to arrive at the sport as a newbie the constant hype would have you believe that he has won everything.Yes he has performed well in a bunch of races but he hasn't dominated anything except YouTube whereas all the other guys who have won multiple Ironman's in the last few years,in fast times, including regional championships are totally ignored. It is hilarious.
.
You love to throw the term "hater" around but that is just a cheap Kafka Trap to try and move the discussion away from the point at hand and that is, people are allowed to both, appreciate and follow Lionel's exploits as an elite triathlete while at the same time shake our collective heads at the rabid,one-eyed fans who feel the need defend some perceived personal attack on Lionel himself.For the millionth time,we are not talking about Lionel per se, but the fans who don't accept that Lionel himself says the same things about his place in the sport that we do.
.
If any other Kona podium guy had failed to win any Ironman, anywhere, in the four years since that podium performance,he would be written off as a has-been as far as Kona goes. Lionel is an exceptional talent but I fear he will go down in history as the greatest to never have won any of the majors, but that is sport.
.
.

One thing that frustrates me about your posts is all the useless periods you input!

On the topic, how many guys can ever be second at Kona? Only one per season. Podium guys at Kona that have failed to win races in the last four years...well you've got Lange, TO, Hoff, all in that conversation.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Re: Lionel's encore?! [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 16:06

Post #61 of 199 (2004 views)

TheStroBro wrote:

ThailandUltras wrote:

TheStroBro wrote:

Doubling down and being wrong is hilarious. The way this sport worked, before this year, outside of Kona every field was weak. (just race for points and not wins) And then the one year where it went to a win or get second qualification system we went straight into a pandemic. But hey, live in your fantasy world that Frankfort was somehow better than Arizona.

.
.
Lionel hasn't won an Ironman in four years but if you were to arrive at the sport as a newbie the constant hype would have you believe that he has won everything.Yes he has performed well in a bunch of races but he hasn't dominated anything except YouTube whereas all the other guys who have won multiple Ironman's in the last few years,in fast times, including regional championships are totally ignored. It is hilarious.
.
You love to throw the term "hater" around but that is just a cheap Kafka Trap to try and move the discussion away from the point at hand and that is, people are allowed to both, appreciate and follow Lionel's exploits as an elite triathlete while at the same time shake our collective heads at the rabid,one-eyed fans who feel the need defend some perceived personal attack on Lionel himself.For the millionth time,we are not talking about Lionel per se, but the fans who don't accept that Lionel himself says the same things about his place in the sport that we do.
.
If any other Kona podium guy had failed to win any Ironman, anywhere, in the four years since that podium performance,he would be written off as a has-been as far as Kona goes. Lionel is an exceptional talent but I fear he will go down in history as the greatest to never have won any of the majors, but that is sport.
.
.

One thing that frustrates me about your posts is all the useless periods you input!

On the topic, how many guys can ever be second at Kona? Only one per season. Podium guys at Kona that have failed to win races in the last four years...well you've got Lange, TO, Hoff, all in that conversation.

.
Yes,and none of those guys are even remotely given the adulation that is piled on Lionel and one of them is a multiple Ironman World Champion who is treated with distain here. They are all largely ignored by everyone,especially here on ST.
.
Lionel is a 70.3 specialist who himself said before the 70.3 worlds that he wasn't in the shape to take on the Norwegians so he was going to bypass (his specialty distance) to focus on Ironman only to say,the week after the St George 70.3 Worlds that he would have done well against the field that showed up. WTF! The dude is all over the place which is highly entertaining.
.
The "Lionel Tribe" is fascinating to me and as much as I'd love to see Lionel actually pull off a win against a stacked field,part of me wants to see how many years the blind faith fans will continue to treat him with such reverence for continuing the second place streak in Ironman races.

Re: Lionel's encore?! [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 16:11

Post #62 of 199 (1998 views)

ThailandUltras wrote:

.
Yes,and none of those guys are even remotely given the adulation that is piled on Lionel and one of them is a multiple Ironman World Champion who is treated with distain here. They are all largely ignored by everyone,especially here on ST.
.
Lionel is a 70.3 specialist who himself said before the 70.3 worlds that he wasn't in the shape to take on the Norwegians so he was going to bypass (his specialty distance) to focus on Ironman only to say,the week after the St George 70.3 Worlds that he would have done well against the field that showed up. WTF! The dude is all over the place which is highly entertaining.
.
The "Lionel Tribe" is fascinating to me and as much as I'd love to see Lionel actually pull off a win against a stacked field,part of me wants to see how many years the blind faith fans will continue to treat him with such reverence for continuing the second place streak in Ironman races.

Honestly, I thought his language around that was insane. All he had to say was: Racing Worlds would be great, but I need to qualify for Kona now that I bonked Coeur D'Alene, so sadly I'm going to put my speed project to win 70.3 worlds on hold. There were logical things to say, and he often says things that are illogical. As a fan, it is frustrating. It's like when your favorite rugby team continues to fail at the set-piece but keeps kicking to the corner when they get a penalty.

The reason why he is so popular is because he is frustrating, fans of the sport continue to root for him to "get it right."

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Last edited by: TheStroBro: Oct 14, 21 16:16

Re: Lionel's encore?! [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 16:19

Post #63 of 199 (1986 views)

ThailandUltras wrote:

TheStroBro wrote:

ThailandUltras wrote:

TheStroBro wrote:

Doubling down and being wrong is hilarious. The way this sport worked, before this year, outside of Kona every field was weak. (just race for points and not wins) And then the one year where it went to a win or get second qualification system we went straight into a pandemic. But hey, live in your fantasy world that Frankfort was somehow better than Arizona.

.
.
Lionel hasn't won an Ironman in four years but if you were to arrive at the sport as a newbie the constant hype would have you believe that he has won everything.Yes he has performed well in a bunch of races but he hasn't dominated anything except YouTube whereas all the other guys who have won multiple Ironman's in the last few years,in fast times, including regional championships are totally ignored. It is hilarious.
.
You love to throw the term "hater" around but that is just a cheap Kafka Trap to try and move the discussion away from the point at hand and that is, people are allowed to both, appreciate and follow Lionel's exploits as an elite triathlete while at the same time shake our collective heads at the rabid,one-eyed fans who feel the need defend some perceived personal attack on Lionel himself.For the millionth time,we are not talking about Lionel per se, but the fans who don't accept that Lionel himself says the same things about his place in the sport that we do.
.
If any other Kona podium guy had failed to win any Ironman, anywhere, in the four years since that podium performance,he would be written off as a has-been as far as Kona goes. Lionel is an exceptional talent but I fear he will go down in history as the greatest to never have won any of the majors, but that is sport.
.
.

One thing that frustrates me about your posts is all the useless periods you input!

On the topic, how many guys can ever be second at Kona? Only one per season. Podium guys at Kona that have failed to win races in the last four years...well you've got Lange, TO, Hoff, all in that conversation.

.
Yes,and none of those guys are even remotely given the adulation that is piled on Lionel and one of them is a multiple Ironman World Champion who is treated with distain here. They are all largely ignored by everyone,especially here on ST.
.
Lionel is a 70.3 specialist who himself said before the 70.3 worlds that he wasn't in the shape to take on the Norwegians so he was going to bypass (his specialty distance) to focus on Ironman only to say,the week after the St George 70.3 Worlds that he would have done well against the field that showed up. WTF! The dude is all over the place which is highly entertaining.
.
The "Lionel Tribe" is fascinating to me and as much as I'd love to see Lionel actually pull off a win against a stacked field,part of me wants to see how many years the blind faith fans will continue to treat him with such reverence for continuing the second place streak in Ironman races.

Jurgen Zack is getting pissed off right now that you're giving all of ths credit to Lionel for finishing second at Kona 2017 and winning no other Ironmans. Jurgen was second at kona 1997 after going sub 8 the same year at Roth (and also not winning) and to my recollecton winning no other Ironmans after that 2nd

Lionel actually backed up his Kona 2017 2nd wiith an 7:54 win in his very next race at Arizona!!!

Here is the link to Lionel's finisher certificate (remember those) :

https://feathersprod.blob.core.windows.net/...932-23E6705B4BDE.pdf

Last edited by: devashish_paul: Oct 14, 21 16:32

Re: Lionel's encore?! [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 16:55

Post #64 of 199 (1953 views)

ThailandUltras wrote:

BigBoyND wrote:

ThailandUltras wrote:

[
Now,now,we all know that according to ST the only person who ever rides "the train" in races is Lange. Everyone else rides alone and in their own space away from all the other contenders. It is an established ST fact,. :-)
.

The difference isn't about participating in trains, but taking pulls. Until recently, including his Kona wins, Lange did not take pulls

.
.
Nobody is "required" to go to the front...That is part of his tactic as a runner which is why Macca tried to marshal the troops to ride the runners legs off back in the day..They just haven't been able to ride away from Lange.
.
.

No one claimed it is required. But it's a reason fans and his competitors respect(ed?) him less than if he won on sheer effort. That's what makes Lionel more interesting. Lange used to sit in packs and then run up. Lionel comes out of the water in the back and nearly kills himself getting to the front while passing 90%+ of the pro field and either finishing top 3 or bonking. It's more entertaining.

Regarding your points about "adulation": there isn't much of it on ST. There's a lot of general discussion, but that's because he is a top contender (even if not the top contender) who is exciting to watch and has a media presence. I follow many other athletes but how many of them are actually entertaining? Sam Long is fun. TTL and Lucy content are generally good. Tim and Rinny I couldn't get into. Watch all of Skippers/Iden videos which are good but not great (yet). Most other athletes barely put themselves out there so there just isn't much to talk about.

Re: Lionel's encore?! [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 16:55

Post #65 of 199 (1953 views)

ThailandUltras wrote:

that is just a cheap Kafka Trap to try and move the discussion away from the point at hand and that is, people are allowed to both, appreciate and follow Lionel's exploits as an elite triathlete while at the same time shake our collective heads at the rabid,one-eyed fans who feel the need defend some perceived personal attack on Lionel himself

So true.

"You disagree with me, you say something negative about (insert any athlete name), you're a hater, everything you say is stupid, don't want to talk to you".

When did people forget how to debate without getting all emotional and Manichean?

Lionel has never won any big stacked races, his resume over the past 10 years is less impressive than many others', it's just a fact. Absolute terms, his resume is still amazing. It is possible to say that, while having a lot of respect for the guy. Sam Long - younger that's true - is in the same category for now.

Re: Lionel's encore?! [ALG] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 17:48

Post #66 of 199 (1879 views)

ALG wrote:

ThailandUltras wrote:

that is just a cheap Kafka Trap to try and move the discussion away from the point at hand and that is, people are allowed to both, appreciate and follow Lionel's exploits as an elite triathlete while at the same time shake our collective heads at the rabid,one-eyed fans who feel the need defend some perceived personal attack on Lionel himself

So true.

"You disagree with me, you say something negative about (insert any athlete name), you're a hater, everything you say is stupid, don't want to talk to you".

When did people forget how to debate without getting all emotional and Manichean?

Lionel has never won any big stacked races, his resume over the past 10 years is less impressive than many others', it's just a fact. Absolute terms, his resume is still amazing. It is possible to say that, while having a lot of respect for the guy. Sam Long - younger that's true - is in the same category for now.

Perfectly said! It's cult like.

Re: Lionel's encore?! [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 17:53

Post #67 of 199 (1872 views)

SBRcanuck wrote:

Fishbum wrote:

He might draw a few more people but I imagine the Lion's share decided to watch when it became Jan versus Gustav

I dunno man.......Iden's youtube vid posts (brother's channel I think) get a few thousand views after a few weeks. Lionel's are getting upwards of 100k views. One is a bigger draw than the other.

Give it up and confess your love for LS!

Of 100k veiws how many aren't you....6 or 7

;)~

Re: Lionel's encore?! [earthling] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 18:08

Post #68 of 199 (1853 views)

A celebrity? You do know that most of the world still think one of the sports is shooting and that it is spelt “triathalon”. Triathlon is small…it just happens to contain some remarkable athletes.

________________
Adrian in Vancouver

Re: Lionel's encore?! [AJHull] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 20:01

Post #69 of 199 (1754 views)

AJHull wrote:

A celebrity? You do know that most of the world still think one of the sports is shooting and that it is spelt “triathalon”. Triathlon is small…it just happens to contain some remarkable athletes.

This. And many people in triathlon have no idea who Lionel or what Slowtwitch is. You are genuinely talking about a very small sphincter of celebrity.

Re: Lionel's encore?! [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 20:21

Post #70 of 199 (1738 views)

OK I went and checked the start list. I see Cam Wurf is racing.

So will Lionel have enough bike legs to attack with Cam to close gap on Iden+Jan or will Lionel get dropped at T1 and let the others take the full benefit of the moto like at Chattanooga?

Re: Lionel's encore?! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 20:43

Post #71 of 199 (1718 views)

Really curious how it plays out. Lionel seemed to have figured out that with an even pace, he can easily get sub-8. But that strategy probably won't get him on a podium at this race. On the other hand, Cam's bike pace is probably not sustainable, either.

My guesses for the future prediction thread:
- Lionel will push harder on the bike this race but still let Cam go. Gradually works his way up during the bike and run to 3rd or 4th depending on Iden bonking or not
- Iden comes off the bike in 3rd behind Jan and Cam, passes Cam on the run but doesn't reduce the gap to Jan by more than a minute. Comes in 2nd or bonks
- Cam catches Iden on the bike, who stays with him for a while before he also let's him go. Cam get's close to Jan before T2 but get caught by Iden on the run. 2nd or 3rd place depending on Iden bonking or not
- Jan leads wire-to-wire in another master class

Re: Lionel's encore?! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 21:08

Post #72 of 199 (1701 views)

I mentioned the MX Endurance podcast earlier and thought that two of the things they said were interesting. Firstly, it may be Jan's last chance to get the "official" Ironman worlds best time and secondly,it may be his best chance to beat Iden given that it is Gustav's first try at the distance and who knows what will happen first time out.Throw in Cam's cavalier attitude to racing,the Sanders diesel engine chugging through the field in the final couple of hours and the talented all-sorts filling in the gaps, it should make for some serious entertainment.
.
The side entertainment will be following the comments of outraged fans on Ironman Now, who will be banging madly on their keyboards demanding more coverage of the pro women.. :-)
.

Last edited by: ThailandUltras: Oct 14, 21 21:11

Re: Lionel's encore?! [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 22:20

Post #73 of 199 (1649 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

OK I went and checked the start list. I see Cam Wurf is racing.

Cam is also meant to be racing Mallorca this weekend, so let's see if he's racing and if he's fit & fresh.

Re: Lionel's encore?! [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 22:22

Post #74 of 199 (1646 views)

In the movie franchise, Rocky Balboa was not popular because he won. He was popular because he was Rocky. He would have remained a fan favorite even in defeat.

Lionel is popular because he’s Lionel.

Re: Lionel's encore?! [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]

Oct 14, 21 23:02

Post #75 of 199 (1613 views)

ThailandUltras wrote:

The side entertainment will be following the comments of outraged fans on Ironman Now, who will be banging madly on their keyboards demanding more coverage of the pro women.. :-)
.

Also the weird group of Lionel super fans who spam the chat every 20 seconds saying "No one cares show Lionel" no matter what's actually happening in the race

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