" would guess that it would be much easier for a sub-5 hour ironman cyclist to do a couple of weeks of speed work and be able to handle so surges in an ITU style race than it would be for an ITU style racer to hop in and crank a 4:45 ironman split."

it really depends on the background. I talked with Gordo about that, he has been unable to counter attacks in bike races in NZ (maybe it has changed)...
There are also some ITU guys that can ride very well and would post fast time with no problem (lessing and co)

You should change your nickname to Cole Trickle.

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"your horse is too high" - tigerchik

I went down and watched a local tennis tounament -- sure didn't look like Wimbleton, a lot slower, less power - but they were having fun and were serious about thier competition. And the rules were the same as the pros.

I watched a soccer game in the park -- didn't look like the world cup matches I have seen -- but the participants were serious about thier game. And the rules were the same as in the World cup.

I have done many staged bike races. We were a lot slower than they ride in the tour. But there were time trials, flat stages, hilly stages, break aways, bunch sprints. And the rules were the same as the pros.

Watched a highschool football game -- rules were the same.

Basketball -- same rules, Volleyball -- Same rules. You get the point.

The Sport of triathlon in which we participate is different from what the pros race on the ITU circuit and at the Olympics. Of course it is a Triathlon. But when we race an "Olympic" distance triathlon - it is non drafting and the stradegy is different, how you train is different, it is a different sport.

I would like to USA Triathlon develop a catagory system similar to USCF (USA Bicycliong) -- And have some races for cat 3 and above races that are drafting legal. Wave start the race - Cat 1,2,3 go first -- Draft legal format. 30 minutes later - Cat 4 & 5 go -- Non drafting. And you are racing in your catagory and in your age group.

This would help develop our younger age groupers into great pros.

Riiiinnnngg......riiiiinnnngggg

Hello?

Yes, this is Mr. Logic.

What's that?

Why yes, I am missing my balls.

I follow your first paragraph and would agree it is still triathlon. It is kind of like the DH in baseball. But bad mouthing IM doesn't really help your case. Although it is a good move to get a reaction.

darn, that was a baaaaaaad movie...

Screw reasoning with us, let's just start calling names.

HaHaha

You guy's are all fat, lazy, Detroit Lions fans.

Detroit ... that might be my Bears only two wins all year. ;)

I'm glad I didn't have access to the internet when I was 15 - I say stupid enough sh*t these days... much worse then.

With some of the dumb stuff I've said at 30, it's almost hard to imagine what kind of *ahem* expert knowledge/opinions I would have written at 15.

I love any thread where one guy is ready to settle something once and for all for the rest of us.

Best line in the whole thread.

"Once and for all ..." until next week's thread of "For the last time ..."

Did anyone in this thread change their opinion? Just another standard debate.

You should change your nickname to Cole Trickle.

... or Dick Trickle. [Wasn't the name from the movie, Cole Frickle?]

Dick Trickle and Ron Tugnutt ... 2 of the best names the sporting world has ever seen.

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Is there anything that lasts for 8-17 hours that won't have boring stretches? (yes, even that might have a "less than exciting" stretch after 14 hours)

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

cole trickle was tom cruise in days of thunder, one of the worst movies ever made...good that nicole kidman was in it...otherwise really nothing to watch :-)

Tom Cruise played Cole Trickle in the movie Days of Thunder.

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"your horse is too high" - tigerchik

Francois ... comments like that could lead to deportation.

Americans like movies that don't have Roberto Benini in them.

Next thing you're gonna say is that the Rambo and Rocky series aren't the greatest movies of all time.

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You guys are right ... it is "Trickle". I knew it was Cole Frickle, Cold Pickle, or something like that.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Sparticus: "how you train, it is a different sport"

Does Maurice Greene train for a different sport than Paula Radcliffe? Same sport, differnt event/format.



Quick question for all the non-drafting "purists" on this forum:
Have you ever done a draft legal triathlon? and I don't mean ITU caliber. Simply, podunk local race that is draft legal.

The few draft legal races I've done were extremely tough because the pace is dictated to you, but I won't get into it. Just looking to see if you have any first hand experience to claim that drafting is bs.

You all should come to Lake Louisa in Clermont, FL and get tooled on by Team Z. www.usat-ntc.com

Seriously, there are chances to particpate in draft-legal triathlon, especially for juniors and u/23 in the USAT series. IronKids is draft legal, as is Xterra, but that is probably a different sport b/c you have to train in the mud right?

Dre

Quit all your b*tching and celebrate the fact that our sport is growing and has lots of different an exciting formats all of which fall under the best sport around...TRIATHLON.

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-Dre
RD at Clash Endurance

rambo? rocky? hellllllllo :-)
you have plenty of great american movies, without Roberto Benigni in them...
like the groundhog day :-)

Francois "My favorite movie is Air Bud, Golden Reciever."

Triplethreat "I simply luved the Princess Diary's."

Dre "what's a movie."

Both are Triathlon to me, just different skills are rewarded. It appears to me that ITU racing rewards best those that are really fast swimmers and runners, but not necessarily great cyclists. If one exits the water in the first groups and drafts most of the bike, and runs like a gazelle, this is the winning ticket. I seems to be much harder for the person who is a less than great swimmer, because, no matter how good a cyclist, it is hard to make up time solo against a drafting lead group, unless one happens to be able to hook up with like cyclists. This leaves a very difficult to overcome run deficit. I would think that a guy like Walton, who can leave everyone in the dust on the swim and bike, would be hurt by this since people could draft off of him and then leave him on the run, which is not his strong point.

One can't be a mediocre cyclist, but if one can keep up with the draft, the lead out of the water and strong run would put you among the leaders.

Non-drafting requires those of us mediocre cyclists to pull our own weight.

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

i think in the olympic tri u needed to be a strong cyclist.

I would definiately call Sprinting a 100 Meters or 200 Meters on a track a different Sport that the marathon.

Thank you for proving my point! Yes, both are running - but is it the same kind of running?? Do they train the same? Run the same mileage? Run the same intervals? Wear the same shoes?

Different event and format?? No -- that would be the 100 Meters vs. the 200 meters - different event, same all out sprint, wearing the same shoes, trained for the same. Different Format - That would be Boston marathon vs. New York marathon.

Again -- Thanks for Proving my point

By your argument IM racing is also a different sport than short course triathlon period whether it is drafting or not.

Marathon and 100M are both running events just as IM and Olympic triathlon are both triathlon.

IF A RACE HAS SWIMMING, CYCLING AND RUNNING IT IS A TRIATHLON!

One is not better or worse, just different disciplines within the same sport.

1. I never said one was better or worse -- Just different.

2. Define "Sport" -- I think we are using two different definitions. My definition -- yes, Ironman and Short course triathlon are two different sports. You prepare differently, train differently, most use different equipment (I use different bikes and running shoes), tactics are different.

3. My Point was -- Non-drafting Olympic distance vs. Drafting Olympic distance -- training is different (according to my friend who spent hours motor pacing on the bike, getting ready for the drafting format), equipment is different (no aerobars, race wheel selection), and tactics are way different. -- So by my definition -- training, equipment and tactics -- it is a different sport.

4. My second point -- Offer up drafting races to amatuers -- I would like to try my hand at a draft legal race. Just like I play tennis, volleyball and golf by the same rules as the pros. And I bet we would have a greater appreciation of the sport they do if we did the same thing with the same rules and same tactics. Cause I know they do it way better than i ever will. Just like I am amazed at the pro golfers.

While drafting would benefit me (cycling is by far my weakest event) I would NOT want to race a drafting event with a bunch of triathletes on aerobars. (I like my skin left on my body.)

Allowing drafting in age group would make things much easier for officials however, the dangers of poor bike handling skills in a tight group are too great.

Speaking of golf - are stroke play and match play two different sports - afterall the rules are different ;-)

The better or worse comment wasn't directly to you - just in general to all those who insist on complaining about the Olympic triathlon.

mike

Hi Dre

I have actually only done one triathlon that was draft legal and unfortunately I didn't know it before the race started. I was doing a race at the CNE grounds in Toronto a number of years ago and I was in doing a swim warmup when they announced that they would allow drafting since the bike was 10 times a 2.5k loop and they wouldn't be able to enforce a no-drafting rule on this type of course. I missed this announcement and ended up spending the first 7 laps as the one dictating the pace as I tried to shake off and ride away from the 4 or 5 guys sitting on my wheel. I was getting majorly pissed off and near the end of the 7th loop yelled at them to get off my wheel .... the response was something like "You asshole, this race is draft legal" ....... I obviously felt like a big dork since I had been working my ass off and not sitting in at all. I ended up 3rd overall at that one but probably would have had a different result if I had gone into coaster mode like the guys that I was pulling around (my background is running and is by far the best of the 3 components for me).

Unless I turn elite, at 37 years of age, there are not many opportunities for someone like me to try racing a draft legal event. The rarity of opportunity and changes required to my bike setup would probably have me pick another event anyway.

"there are not many opportunities for someone like me to try racing a draft legal event"

Expect to be humbled, but if you want to try draft legal racing enter a road race. I think there are road race events with classes for newbies in both Kingston and Gananoque. I believe you could either go Cat 5 and go crash bang with the kids or enter the masters and face off against guys in your AG with years of road race experience. There is also an active road race group in Peterborough. At least most of those roadie race guys have some idea what they're doing. The thought of draft legal tri with a group of AG trigeeks is pretty scarey.

Another option is join a good roadie group. Sometimes the group rides simulate road racing quite well. But you should get another bike other than the Wheeler for this!!

Draft legal should have its own name. ITS NOT TRIATHLON. Drafting is not allowed in triathlon. Duathlon had to change its name because there was already a sport called biathlon.

Lets hear some suggestions for a name for draft legal races.

"Lets hear some suggestions for a name for draft legal races. "

How about "draft legal triathlon". Self explanatory. Or how about "triathlons for trigeeks who have bike handling skills". Or "swim, draft, run".

Actually, it is TRIATHLON. I believe they just had the olympic TRIATHLON. not the Olympic 3 different sports athon.

I've had a few ITU triathletes live with me over the past few winters and trained with some others.
ITU racers are as fast as any short course or long course pro. When was the last major non drafting short course race won by someone else than a non ITU racing pro? If you don't think they are capable of riding off the front in a non drafting race, say clocking in the 54's for 40k, then allow me to buy you glasses.

ITU racing has elevated the entire realm of triathlon, from short course to IM. You have to be a faster swimmer than say, 8 years ago. You could have been a world beating pro triathlete swimming 18:30 for 1.5k, now you'd be lucky to see anybody in an ITU race if you swam that slow. In the USTS days you could run a high 35 min 10k and not drop out of the top 3 OV. 35 in a tri now, hahaha get use to looking at lots of arse passing you buy if you a pro, or a top AGer.

It's triathlon just a different format.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

you're right...18.30 is about what I swim and when I swam with the OD guys of Bill Davoren in Oz, I got my butt handed to me big time every single sessions...
35' is what faster women run...

I would just say, that I do not believe many of the guys in ITU racing can ride 54'...the very best riders like Waldo, Lessing, Macca, Marceau etc. sure can, but there are quite a few who I don't think can (not by themselves anyway).