".....to run 3:30ish on race day if I don't do something stupid."

The first thing that comes to me is to have the utmost respect for the LP course! It has a lot of ways to test you and drain you, and if you have pushed yourself too hard on the bike (which is very easy to do) you will pay for it on the run. Just for comparison, if this helps, my best stand-alone marathon is 3:29, my Boston was 3:55 in the '04 heatfest, and my LP "run" last year was 4:40; these were all accomplished when I was 54/55, and my fitness was quite solid.

The early downhills at Boston and LP are not similar. At Boston it's on fresh legs and there is the massive pack to help you regulate your effort. At LP the hill begins immediately out of transition, it's steep, and the only thing that will regulate you is your common sense. I had done this descent a few times prior to race day, so I took it very gingerly and I'm sure my quads and knees were thankful. Fortunately, this descent is only about 1/4 mile long, then it does a short climb and for the next couple of miles you're into mostly flats. As you approach the base of the ski jump before the turn onto River Road there is another fairly steep descent, but you're loose at this point and don't need to be cautious on this one. River Road is flat to rolling, although a couple of the rollers caught my attention and at that point I knew I was going to be spending more time on the run than I had hoped. (And I had run this route a couple times previously.)

Coming back, the base-of-ski-jump hill is tough, the steep hill with the 90-degree turn in the village is tougher. I made it a point to run both of these and I succeeded --- at least on the first loop. The out-and-back on Mirror Lake Drive is a nice respite, then you're back to Main Street, the crowd is going nuts -- and it's off for round two. This time around, that steep descent is much easier on the legs, but I'd still caution against any tendency towards overstriding.

That's the short of it, I guess. The course does allow long stretches of getting into a feasible rhythm, and I hope that's what you are able to achieve on the 24th. It didn't work for me last year, but I had gone harder on the bike than was wise. I was especially foolish to "attack" the final five miles of the bike as I did, where i'm sure that I did that stretch more quickly on the second loop than I did on the first loop. The bike course is hardly designed to give your legs any break by being gentle towards the end, and the final mile or so from Northwood School to transition just isn't enough to recover if you've pushed too hard from Wilmington until that point.

I hope some of this helps. It's an awesome (in every sense of the word) course, and I hope the day goes great for you!

Great read. I'm also doing LP for the first time (1st IM also) and I'll be sure to keep this in my mind. I'm heading to LP this weekend to train with thr group doing the IronTour. Hope to take some of these points and apply them to the training weekend so I know what to encounter on race day.

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Canadian resident again 10/31/2009

Oh, I'm trying. Right now I run a 2:40 open marathon. At any rate, thanks a bunch for the advice.

The course discription above is perfect.

Is this your first Ironman? If so, be very conservative on the bike. I know several 2:40 marathoners that haven't broken 4:30 at L.P. The best advice I've read was on xtri a few years ago: "never, ever underestimate how slow you can run the marathon in an Ironman."

Trev is correct. In the year that I ran Boston in 2:59, I only ran 3:55 at Ironman LP. Trust me, I have seen many sub 2:50 guys only run 4:50 at LP.

This course is all about the silliness on the bike. People underestimate how much the bike takes out of you in LP. Just look at the fastest run split from LP and they will be for people whose first and second bike loops are less than 10 min apart. If your second loop is more than 10 min slower than your first loop, kiss any hope of running 3:30 out the window. Most people kill their LP run during the first loop of the bike. Remember this , print it out and tape this reminder to your aerobars.

"First Loop Bike Stud = Second Loop Run Blowup"

As a point of reference, only around 2.5% of the field runs sub 3:30 at LP. That equates to 50 people out of 2000.

Well I dunno, I've gone extremely slow on the bike and still had a really slow run!

The beginning of the LP run course can really throw you off. Last time I was there my goal was to run 9 minute miles, but my first one was in the mid 7's - I felt great, but not that great! The downhill tricked me. Second mile was mid 8's, and then I fell behind my goal after that.

I think you're on the right track with offering run advice by giving bike advice instead. I'd say that if you're putting pain in your quads on the bike you're adding half hours or more to your run.

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Elivis needs boats.

I'm doing IMLP for the first time this year. Thanks for the information, I read your post twice- it was easier than the workout I should be doing.

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I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'

In addition to biking 180KM before the marathon. You also have nutrition issues. Plus the fact you're starting the marathon around noon in July when the temperature can be well into the 80's. Unlike most marathons that are run in the spring and fall.

Instead of looking at running I "time". I would try to gauge yourself against how other people are doing on that day in the conditions for that day.

Tupper Lake this week is a prime example. Travis Kuhl ran what a 1:27 (1st overall and fastest half mari). I don't think he's run a 1:27 since he was five years old.

Just my $ 0.02

Seriously guys, the Ironman run is all about the bike. Let me just put it this way. Probably 90% of the dudes on this forum can run sub 3:30 fresh. Only 2.5% of the field at Ironman LP can run sub 3:30 off the bike. So its not about your running ability, it is about your ability to bike efficiently and quickly without redlining your wattage. The stats do not lie. Here is another bit of advice to tape to your other aerobar:

"Dog the Uphills, Hammer the downhills, Cruise the flats"

This is also known as the constant effort plan

Most people ride in triathlon like roadies...aka the constant speed program. They hammer the uphills, dog the downhills and do yo yo effort on the flats. What do I mean by yo yo effort of the flats ? What I mean is that into a headwind they try to hold 30 kph come hell or high water. With a tailwind they softpedal at 35 kph. Better to go 25 kph in the headwind and do the same effort and do 45 kph with the tailwind. This is what I mean by cruising. If you have to please, stick a piece of black electrical tape over your speed reading on your bike computer and just go by perceived exertion.

This is the best advice I can give to a 2:40 runner.

Oh, and I've read EVERYTHING I can on the LP bike course, and plan to be very, very conservative. I'm a fairly decent cyclist, but always go easy in IM.

"constant effort"

That sounds like the way I've been riding in training, that's what I'll write on my hand.

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I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'

No offense but there are legions of people who have gone sub 10 at Florida. LP is something entirely different. The sub 10 list is much shorter. Listen to the bike advice above. it's spot on.

I, too, would caution you to avoid comparing IMFL with IMUSA LP. Most of my fast friends who have done both (including guys who have ridden 9:30 at IMFL) have gone 30-35 minutes slower at LP.

LP is a course that demands patience (much more than FL where you probably need to ride a bit harder early in the race to find the right "group"). You won't find "groups" nearly as frequently at LP and they certainly won't be large/strong at the end of two laps (the stair-step climb will break things up).

Ride patiently (Dev's advice is spot on) and then let it flow on the run. I'd argue that the hills on the run really aren't that bad because they are typically pretty short (albeit steep) so as long as you are patient around town, the rest of the course will let you find a good groove and run sub-8s without too much effort (based upon your running background).

Cheers,

Jonathan C. Puskas

www.wenzelcoaching.com

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http://wattieink.com/elite-team/
Raising funds to help wounded veterans and racing RAAM 2013 with http://team4mil.org/
"If you are gonna charge... CHARGE HARD!"

If I've given the illusion that I'm comparing the 2, I'm not, and have no illusions about going sub 10 at LP. I'm simply trying to have the best race possible, whatever that may be. The only reason for posting marathon time is I was hoping for some pacing advice. A 3:30 is not unreasonable for me, even on a hard course, but I know a 3:30 can become a 4:30 with pacing mistakes on the bike and run. There is tons of info on the bike course, and I've studied that hard. There is essentially no info on the run. I don't approach the run as something to simply slog through - a good marathon requires as much pacing strategy as a good bike. That's why I'm asking.

I am also doing LP as a first time IM. I found this link (below) very helpful. He details our the run and bike course with great detail and advice. Take a look, I think you will find it useful. Happy training... see you in 26 days.



http://www.byrn.org/gtips/imlp.htm

Best of luck to you as well. I have gordo's stuff on LP printed out and in my journal. I read it a lot, and am hoping to pick up a few tips here as well. Thanks to everyone so far who has posted. I hope it helps!

"Puskas" uses a word that I think sums it up: patience. This is a course that provides huge challenges for you all the way until the last big uphill run back into town at mile 24/25. Just plan your day so there is always enough left in the tank (duh).

It's a tough course, but beautiful and its always been a great race for me. I've done three (01, 02, 04) and am counting the days until July 24. See you then!

I didn't mean to imply that you won't go sub 10 in LP. You very well might and I hope you do, you are obviuosly an excellent athlete. I just think that LP is about 30-45 minutes slower than Florida even under the best of conditions and most of that comes from the bike. If you averaged 22mph at Florida you shouldn't expect to ride more than 20-20.5mph and still be able to run well. Set a realistic bike split and you will run well.

I'm hoping to go sub 10 there too this year. My goal is 20mph on the bike and a 3:15-3:20. I just hope it's not like 2003.

No worries - I didn't take your comments negatively - just worried that I implied something I didn't. Actually, I'm guessing that I'll be around 20 MPH, perhaps just a little under since I plan to ride very conservatively. I'm used to training in mountains so I have a decent idea of what I can easily hold on a course with this kind of profile. I negative split my bike in Florida, and ran my second half marathon only 15 seconds slower than my first, so if I can keep it even in LP I should have a decent race. My pipe dream goal would be around 10:15, but I'll consider anything under 10:30 an improvement over my Florida time. Thanks for the advice.

You will kick ass. From that info it is obvious that you know how to pace a race. Very few people negative split a two loop IM bike course and even less even split a two loop run.

Dev's correct. A 10 minute difference between lap 1 and lap 2 on the bike is a pretty good marker to shoot for at L.P. Even Lessing I believe was 10 minutes slower on the second lap last year. Anything greater than that the marathon isn't going to be fun. Kate Major rocked the bike last year (two minutes difference I believe. Amazing!! ).

It's so damn hard to "sit in" that first half of the bike - your mind keeps telling you that all these people passing you will take some effort to reel in. But, it's amazing how after 8 miles of running how an 8 minute mile pace enables you to blow past people like they have roots. I'm also always suprised by how little difference there is between riding a bit "too" easy and pushing a bit "too" much - sometimes only a mile an hour. Anytime lost in going easy will be quickly gained back on the run.

My PR race in Florida was one of those you would like to tuck in a box and pull out whenever you needed it - a PR swim, perfectly even bike and run splits (on a pretty "even" course elevation wise). Hilly courses are far more difficult to dole out even efforts over. devashishpaul is dead one when he says it's the key to racing - you just have to get over the ego blow of going 10-12 mph up some hills. That's definitely the hardest part.

Exactly. When it takes on average 18 mins. to walk on mile. String a few of those miles together and there goes the 5-10 mins you saved pushing air on the bike. :-)