If it were that simple, why are folks even talking about this? Is she not a women? And if not, why not is the question.

And now our society is changing to not what used to be defined as a male or female, by whatever one feels they are by what is in their head.
So how can you say a "man" can use all the "female" facilities when they identify as a "female", and society and laws protect this, but cannot also do sports as a "female"?
I have no answer, but in our world today, society is making things pretty interesting.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I agree same can spin it this way, but I also think it is fair to spin it that VO2 is an advantage like T, no matter what caused it.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I have no answer,//

Ok, just stop there and stop providing them then..

I have never provided an answer, or neither can anyone else. This is some ways is like the topic, what is better, a chevy or ford. Is there were an
easy answer, we would have it already, and all could agree.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I see it just the opposite. Monty seems sane. You're the one I'm surprised is married.

Is there were an
easy answer, we would have it already, and all could agree. //

But there is an answer Dave, I gave it to you. Women should race in their own division, not in the mens overall. That is what we have decided as a world, and until something really big changes, it will remain that way.


Now another argument is what constitutes a woman, that is an "entirely" different deal. Now instead of talking about the 10's of millions of women who do sport in the world, you are talking about a few that are extreme outliers. You seem to have confused those few with the millions, and somehow drawn some logic parallel to the situations.


I want your daughters and granddaughters to be able to have the choice of doing professional sport, that is my answer. Sorry you cannot come up with the same one..

Hmmm. I don't think it's spin, I think most of what I said is fact. With VO2 max you are talking about the best of the best being 10-20% above other highly trained athletes. With intersex athletes you are talking about testosterone levels 200-300% higher than the rest of the field.

Also, VO2 max tends to be trainable although we don't know to what extent but most of the highest scoring athletes tend to be Nordic skiers and it has long been speculated it's because their sport is full body and very aerobic, not because everyone with a high VO2 max becomes a Nordic skier.

Finally, you completely ignored my point that Testosterone outside of the WADA limits Seems to be more of a predeterminer of outcome of a competition than an abnormally high testosterone level. Again, we don't know fully how much but Caster Semanaya seems to have improved 4-6 seconds when she went off treatment.

Although your solution may solve the problems of intersex athletes, it would be a terrible thing for girls and women the world over who find hope and meaning in sport.

The reason that white dudes shouldn't get there own category is because there is no biological difference between races. There is a biological difference between men and women; there are unfortunately women whose societally defined gender doesn't match their X/y biology. They are unique instances that if solutions aren't crafted, then women's sport could be greatly altered. And there is potential for precedent as ideas about gender become more fluid.

The greatest problem is that the people who are the outliers are people, with emotions and identities, and the most obvious solutions are the most harmful to them. Excluding Dutee Chand from competing, requiring treatment, or asking her to race against men; are all manners of suggesting to her that she is not a woman in the form which she has identified for her entire life. Whereas to her, just because she undeveloped make organs hidden in her body, doesn't change that she is a woman.

Hello h2ofun and All,

h2ofun wrote in part: "Help me out, guess I am real dumb. How is a person with testicles a woman? What is on their birth certificate? I have never heard they do a DNA test at birth to determine sex, I thought you just looked between their legs."

A Caucasian cyclist lying in a hospital bed after a crash with a broken collar bone and other injuries was approached by a young new student nurse.

"How are you doing sir? I am here to give you a sponge bath", she said.

Struggling to speak with the plastic oxygen mask covering his nose and mouth, he mumbled, "Are my testicles black?"

She answered, "I am sorry sir I am only authorized to bathe you above the navel."

Again, much agitated, he asked, "Are my testicles black?"

Fearing his agitation would worsen his health the nurse carefully pulled down the covers, lifted his hospital gown, grasped his manhood and moved it to the side for a clear view, peering intently at his testicles.

"No, sir, your testicles look fine."

Struggling again to move the oxygen mask from his nose and mouth he said, "Nurse ..... that ------ was ------ very ------ nice ------ but ------ please ---- listen ---------- carefully ......

Are ....... my ........... test .......... results ......... back?"

---

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Well, I hate to break it to you Dave, but no, things aren't that simple. No one has seen Caster's biology but what is supposed is that she has undeveloped and undescended testes and an XY chromosome makeup.

Of course there is the intersex athlete discussion; and then also, the hypoandrogenism discussion, although I don't know how many women lie outside the first category and remain in the second,

But to the women who are compelled to compete against her, it might.

I'm all for being compassionate to intersex. But also the women who are compelled to compete against intersex athletes who have what appear to be a musculature and hormone profile consistent with a male athlete.

As I wrote above, you don't avoid an ethical dilemma by letting everyone do what they feel like.

Someone's going to be hurt . You just have to choose who.

Thank you for just saying it. I thought that point was so obvious that it went without saying, but apparently it needed saying.

I don't think nothing should be done. I was just pointing out that it's a really jarring ing for the intersex women involved. I actually thought testosterone suppression therapy was fairly humane and the least intrusive. But I'm not sure what options has after the CAS decision.

I don't think your referring to the solution that suits most women is the "most obvious". Surely reverse doping people isn't as obvious as us all racing as one? Divisiveness is a major problem around the world and leads to a crap ton of conflict. Race, religion, even down to clan and family. How about we stop figuring out how to be different, so we can all be "big frog in little pond" and learn to accept being "small frog in large pond"? We're all just humans afterall. We bleed red when we're cut, we cry when our parents die, and so many other things tie us together as people. Why divide people into arbitrary groups?

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

"The reason that white dudes shouldn't get there own category is because there is no biological difference between races."

However, there is indeed a biological difference between races. If you haven't done so, please read "The Sports Gene". In the afterword in the paperback edition, Epstein actually talks about several instances where pretty conclusive research findings have been kept under wraps because the researchers were so afraid of the societal backlash from the results of their study.

I'm really glad Epstein had the stones to write about some of the topics he did. People are so afraid to touch anything to do with race these days.

I think hormone suppression actually sounds fairly horrific. Sounds something similar to the "chemical castration" that's been used experimentally on sex offenders.

But, call me cruel, I don't see an outright ban for certain women from women's competition as something awful. They'd still get all the avenues for recreation and competition at non-elite levels (I'd hope). It's not the end of the world not being fast enough to compete at the Olympics. I'm not, and I've managed to handle it. I understand it'd be more jarring for an already-elite athlete. But still, I think the definition of "woman" in the context of sport has to have some enforceable definition. Or else maybe I have that shot at the Olympics after all!

I think it's ridiculous trying to regulate endogenous testosterone levels for determining competition eligibility.... least common denominator. If you have a Y chromosome you are ineligible to compete as a female. Let the genotype not the phenotype be the determining factor.

Yeah, I'm inclined to go with something like that. Far less a barbaric can of worms than normalizing hormone levels.

First and foremost, your quote and italicizing skills are far beyond mine.

"Making Caster Semenya reverse dope is bad for a woman." Technically speaking, umm, err, no. It'd be bad for an intersex person.

I'm not super up to date on race and biology, but genetically speaking, the only real differences Tend to be outward and they are actually fairly minuscule, not muscle development, etc. https://partners.nytimes.com/...i-genetics-race.html . Now, I don't know how to explain the phenomena we see, which is that 90% or more of the top 100m runners tend be black, but it's not necessarily something that is because of some biological difference tied to skin color. And to the extent there may be differences, I don't believe that they begin to touch the extent of difference we saw for a treated versus untreated Semanaya. Although, I may be more inclined to feel that way because I've known lots of fast white dudes(sub 10.4, sub 46).

And, I guess, in some ways you are the more progressive person because you seem insistent on saying that Chand and Semenaya are women. Which is what most of my academic friends seem to say: they are women because they identify as women, let them compete as women. Scientists tend to come down on the other side, they are not biologically speaking women, ergo, don't let them compete as women.

I know that you're just trolling me and a few other people hard. But I think we need to really stand up for the impact that sports have on some girls and women, and that non gendered competition would drastically change that landscape. Not to mention, it would in and of itself probably reoccur(sponsors and fans would search out the best women, potentially recreate places for them to compete, etc), even if abolished.

Interesting, I've always been taught that there is no difference but in line with my other post. The difference between a pre treatment and post treatment Semanaya was pretty vast.

Anyway, I'll put that book on my list, I'm not afraid of new information.

Seemingly different than many people, I have the ability to make decisions that impact badly on me if they are for the greater good or are fairer.

In this case, it seems to me, that women can't accept losing (to men in this discussion) Fair enough, losing sucks. I don't recall ever winning anything of any consequence. I'm used to losing. I think women need to learn this skill also. After there is a separate set of competitions for women, and they still lose, they blame someone for not being woman enough and want to re-define what it is to be a woman. That just smacks of sour grapes to me.

Either their are two genders (men and women) or there is a continuum. If we go with the binary option, then to me at least, Caster Semenya is a woman. If we go with there being a continuum of genders and this seems to be tacitly accepted by the use of the term "intersex", then how and where to draw the line between men and women becomes an absolute minefield and can only ever be contentious. If on the other hand, as I have suggested, we simply ignore gender as a divider, then the problem is resolved.

Sure, there would be fallout, and victims with my proposal, but there is fallout with the current delineation between men and women, and even a new (testosterone based?) dividing line would also be rife with problems. Would 'women' slightly above the T limit, be able to reverse dope to just below the line to be allowed to compete as women? What about low T men (naturally low at young competitive age. or reverse doped men at older age) be allowed to compete as women since they fall below the arbitrary testosterone limit? If we are forcing some athletes to reverse dope, does that mean we should 'allow' others to do it to compete as women? Efeminate men, that are gay. They shag men, and have low T. Are they simply imperfectly developed women? Should they be allowed to compete as women too?

Clearly some of the above is silly, but I'm simply trying to highlight the point that drawing a line, particularly using testosterone as a determination of gender, is ridiculous. It could be part of the equation, but adding more parts, just makes the determination even more difficult to determine and unfathomable to police.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

What you describe is what Caster Semenya did in order to compete until 2015, when the ruling was overturned. She lost some, but not all of her speed. As others have mentioned already in this thread, her T levels were triple that of then highest normal allowable level, so no small advantage for someone that thinks of hormone levels as performance enhancing.

As someone who replaces my female (estrogen and progesterone) hormones due to aging, I can attest that it's not a big deal, but it definitely helps. I posted because if/when rules are changed again, men will be impacted as well because everyone will have to be tested, not just women. Life and competition will go on; my guess is that we will simply have new rules.

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DFL > DNF > DNS

I completely agree with you about the hairline thing. But I do find her record swim very suspicious. She smashed the record out of the park. Almost all new WR's are by incremental amounts because athletes have become so specified and train year round for particular events and the talent pool is so big now that the difference between the top is very small. It is almost unheard of for a record to be broken that significantly.


But we do live in a society that is innocent until proven guilty. Outside of her amazing performance, there is nothing substantial to suggest doping. We have to live with that until new evidence becomes available.

Hello SallyShortyPnts and All,

https://www.theguardian.com/...ncer-risk-nearly-300

Excerpt:

"Women who rely on the most commonly used form of hormone replacement therapy are roughly three times more likely to develop breast cancer than those who do not use it, according to a study whose results suggest the risk of illness has been previously understated."

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

This is such a common sense suggestion that I find it hard to believe that it is not used. My understanding has always been that the presence or absence of the Y chromosome solely determines a person's genetic sex. This would simplify matters greatly. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."