clincher 404's? They're good training wheels I guess ;-)

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

i've got an old set (2003) of 404 tubulars...650c for sale. don't want any 3rd world families to starve ya know.

josh

had them and sold them for the Tubulars. Have you ever tried to change a deep section 404 clincher, for a lack of a better word it is a bitch. Go with the Tubulars....

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"You're guaranteed to miss 100% of the shots you never take" - Wayne Gretzky

To answer the question that you actually asked, no. The speed penalty of the extra weight of clinchers vs. tubulars is really, really small (like seconds over an IM).

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I just happen to be researching that myself. There is a 400 gr difference in weight which makes you think twice. But from the information I have found from a heap of sources is that the 200 gr per rim only makes a difference during acceleration. Once those babies are up and running the watts required to maintain them is only slightly (negligible) over the tubular. Remember also that the weight is offset by about 100 gr per wheel depending on tyre choice (tubulars are heavier). 100 gr won’t make much difference climbing either. So then it comes down to subjectivity - feel, psychology (tubulars = race wheels), ritual (gluing etc = mental prep), pinch flats (tyre change technique) and speed of changing a flat. Hope this opinion helps.

I ride a set of clincher 404's for two reasons: I ride for team michelin, and I prefer the convenience of clinchers. Zipp makes the wheels in a clincher version for a reason, and that's because there is a demand for them. Clinchers are becoming lighter and lighter. Trust me, the clinchers are still plenty fast. The difference is not the aerodynamics but the rolling resistance and centrifugal forces. Aerodynamics win on the 404's.

TJ

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Cheers,

TJ Tollakson
http://www.tollakson.com
CEO: http://www.rustersports.com and http://www.dimondbikes.com

another reason is if you decide to do road races on them, and it is raining, the metal rims will still brake, while the carbon ones suck, even with "special pads"

I train on the clinchers (got a great deal on used set) and race on the tubies. I love the tubies and highly recommend them. The clinchers aren't bad but putting a new tire on the 404 clincher can be a bitch..especially Continentals..just too tight though Michelins go on better. I have the 650s and there are usually some good deals on Ebay and elsewhere.

I have a set of 404 clinchers I train with (came with the bike) and a set of tubeless 404's that are used for the races only. I live/race in a hilly area and believe the lighter wheels help with climbing and acceleration. Additionally, the tubies can accept higher pressure, thus lower rolling resistance. Finally, as mentioned above, changing a tubeless is faster and easier than a clincher tube, but carrying the spare does require more space. If I had it to do all over again, I'd buy the bike equipped with alum mavics instead of the 404 clinchers for training and put the extra money towards the 404 Tubeless wheels.

If you already have wheels for training, I'd definitely go tubeless for your next set and keep those aside for racing. The downside is you now have to keep two tire change kits (one for clinchers, one for tubeless) and you need to remember to change them out before your race.

Go for the clinchers. The weight difference will be negligible. I have tubular race wheels, and I like them just fine. Tubulars do ride great. But I find it a PITA to have some tubie wheelsets and some clincher wheelsets. I'd prefer if they were all the same. I do like tubulars, but for me they are not worth the little additional hassle. As far as clincher aero wheels go, I like the Zipps because they use aliminum on the rim rather than full carbon. I'm not comfortable with the idea of full carbon clinchers.

I had two sets of 404 clinchers warp on me... as in the aluminum rim section warped so badly that braking was unsafe at best and basically impossible at worst. Zipp replaced the first set with another set of clinchers and when those warped they admitted to having problems with the clinchers and strongly suggested tubulars. The tubulars they sent where great and honestly they were easier to mount a tire on then the clinchers. I would call Zipp directly and asking them about any known issues with the clinchers. They are honest and stand behind their products.

Ron

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If one thinks that whatever weight advantage of a set of 404 tubular is worth the retail price, then it's fine. The problem with the clincher version arises when you realize that the fine aluminum part glued on top of the wheel bumps up the weight right with the competition, which unfortunately costs 1/2 to 2/3 of the price.

Dre'

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Dre,

With that in mind, who do you see as the competition, clincher-wise, to the 404 (at least the ones you mention at 1/2 to 2/3 the price)? Are they as aero?

how did they warp exactly? how did you see this?

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Where would you want to swim ?

Yikes. OK, maybe I'd second guess my advice to go with the clinchers. Good call on cantacting Zipp.

First you will feel it in the brakes, it is a hard pulsing... so hard the rear wheel will lock up and the front will radically deflect the fork blade as it pulses. I put the wheels in my truing stand and you could see the rim get wider and narrower as it rotated. This is different than simply moving side to side as an out of true wheel does... am I making sense? Zipp said that the aluminum was warping as a result of heat buildup from hard braking. I rode the wheels in the mountains and had to brake hard for tight turns during descents. As I said, Zipp was very honest with me and acknowledged the problem right away. That said I am willing to bet that there are plenty of warped 404 clinchers out in the world and Zipp hasn't recalled the wheels. In fact I talked to customer service last month on an unrelated issue and asked if they are still having the warping issues. He replied that they think it is sorted out but they are still seeing some wheels come back. Call and ask before you spend the money.

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I had the same problem! I also ran into this "pulsing brake" phenomenon with my HED3s (clinchers) on the aluminum surface as well.

I would definitely get the tubulars. They ride so much nicer, even with 19mm tires. I was a bit apprehensive about changing the tires, but I have now done it 4 times. No problems. Certainly not as easy as a clincher, but very easy. No so convinced about the rolling resistance debate of 160-170 psi vs. 115-120 though. They are also much less prone to flats (especially if you put that "slime" stuff in there). The new version also does not require the special carbon brake pads. As for weight, for some reason there is a very large diff w/ the Zipps (not so much for the HED 3s) between the tubular and clincher versions. I think this is partly because they tried to optimize the rims for the aerodynamic differences of a clincher and that is the main reason you are buying these wheels, right? Also, you can't compare the weight of a tubular tire to a clincher directly - you have to add the 50-60g for the tube! I for one can feel/tell the difference in the hills or corners when accelerating. In fact, my Zipp 404s tubulars weigh only about 283g more TOTAL than my old rear HED3 alone! I am certain that this is not a "mental" thing -

Go tubular man :)

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

I haven't warped my HED3 or my Renn Disk clincher yet. Of course because they weigh so much I don't ride them in the mountains and they don't get the hard braking that my 404's get.

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I bet they were the old ones with the blunt rim-joint, not the recent year models with the welded and machined braking surfaces that are much better. Zipp has really come a way (although a lot of people literally payed for the refinement of the wheel :-()

I have had both versions and have to admit that the clinchers have gotten much better. Love them and would not look back. As a triathlete I don't care too much about the weight penalty. I can change tires between all my wheelsets in no time, no glue, no deep pockets required (except for the wheelsets). I can put on a heavier/wider tube/tire combo for rough courses, if you are talking comfort or a very light combo for slick racing (Conti-attack/force).

B.T.W.: The Contis fit much better if you pre-stretch and ride them on another rim first (I know this sounds counter-intuitive, but give it a try!)

Not working for Conti, but I am biased towards their country of origin....

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adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)

Oh yeah?

Can you back up your statement?

I am especially interested regarding the aerodynamics aspect you guys always like to put on the top of your list!

And: no, this is not a trick question

And: No, I do not want to ignite the tubular-clincher feud again.

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adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)

> Oh yeah?

Easy Big Boy ...

> Can you back up your statement?

Which one? that the 404 clincher is 135 grams heavier, per rim, than the tubies? The Zipp model numbers are, respectively, 370 and 505. Strangely, they happen to correspond to the masses of said rims. Maybe they were changed recently?

> I am especially interested regarding the aerodynamics aspect
> you guys always like to put on the top of your list!

"you guys"?? I don't: I guess I'm not one of them guys. I like "value" and "durability" (It's pretty clear I don't really belong here). I'm a Hed person (but my disc is a Renn), and I've been looking pretty seriously at the Spinergy stuff for a while. Hed prices went way up, so scratch the 1/2. 2/3 is a good approximation, though.

Variations of drag with yaw angle are substantial, and in many cases, I've noticed that the more aero wheels actually "win" at high angles (check out the Hed site ... it's all there). I'm only cracking 140 pounds when I get out of the water and my skinsuit is soaking wet, so 50 mm (45 for Spinergy) instead of 58 mm isn't a disadvantage in my very own world. My Jet60 is more than a handful at high speed in a cross wind, the Alps is easier to control.

Dre'

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My 404 clinchers were model year 2002. I am not sure if the extruded section is the same as the current production. If it is different do you know what year they changed the design?

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Well, thanks for the info. I wasn't referring to the weight differences, which I don't care to much about (see my first post) and meanwhile found some unbiased scientific studies about the aerodynamic properties of rim extrusions and spoke patterns that are not conducted by a wheel manufacturer. I am not an engineer but as far as I can see for spoked wheels it basically boils down to: The deeper the better (if you can handle it; as you apparently agree).

I think the wheelsets you were referring to are way to new to make a call about their long term durability. Spinergys, that are at best 1/3 cheaper are a completely new wheel. I also think that the ZIPP 400-series tend to be more situated at the lower price-end of spoked carbon aero wheels with a structural carbon rim (I don't think the Stinger/Alps fall in this category). I also agree that HEDs are way overpriced for what their spoked wheels have to offer.

Having said all that and weighting in at 175, if I would buy an aero-wheelset again it would not be a structural carbon clincher again. I would go with an high performance clincher aluminum rim (welded and machined) with a fairing and full servicable spokes and hubs. I really hope that HED gets some tough competition soon.

I will leave it at that and as usual: your opinion may vary.

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adrialin

(BOMK, racing drug and supplement free since 1985)

"I also think that the ZIPP 400-series tend to be more situated at the lower price-end of spoked carbon aero wheels with a structural carbon rim (I don't think the Stinger/Alps fall in this category)."

No one is sure you really know what's going on. With the Zipps being $1350 a set, it's hardly "lower price-end": The Hed Stinger are $900 a set, in case you missed that.

"I also agree that HEDs are way overpriced for what their spoked wheels have to offer."

You certainly don't agree with me, as I own three Hed wheels.

I hope you're not as confused as you seem to be.

Dre'

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