I'm not a podcast person. Tried to listen, very boring, fast forwarded a coulple times and then backed out. Hoping for cliff notes in this thread.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

What about boxes that mount behind the frame like the ones I sell? Or the bottom bracket box?

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http://www.custombikexcessories.com
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We’ll eventually have a transcript for podcasts. It’s on my list.

But until then…

1.) General reminder that the IM rule book is mostly a World Tri one, with some minor exceptions. If IM is silent on a topic, it falls to World Tri. If it is silent on a topic, it then goes to the governing body of the discipline at hand.

2.) we reviewed the zipper policy changes — Jimmy admitting how asinine it was to try and judge how far down a zipper was, and that the modification to the penalty was driven by Matt Sharpe’s DQ last year.

3.) Bike rule changes — most of the language was trying to ban, well, everything Joe Skipper did last year—from bottles/Camelbaks to the arm mounted hydration.

4.) For those of you wanting to 3D print stuff—Jimmy put the kibosh on that. Don’t shoot the messenger—but basically they file that under the safety bucket.

5.) If you think something might be questionable, especially in terms of bike equipment, send it in to IM, it gets routed to Jimmy, he’ll bless it or reject it and copy in the head ref of the race(s) you’re doing so you don’t get a different answer at bike check in.

6.) Affirmed the protest process—so if you see someone, say, wearing illegal shoes, you can protest and go thru that system.

Those are the main points.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

I have a feeling the shoe thing is going to be an issue in the AG ranks just due to the number of high stack super trainers like the new Hoka Skyward X or even older shoes like the Bondi. Then you have things like the Mizuno Wave Rebellion which Running Warehouse lists as having a 48mm stack but according to World Athletics it only measures 40mm due to the bevel.

Like where are we measuring the stack from and how is this going to be adjudicated at a local race?

Few things I wish you guys touched on. What is a fairing? Duct tape. And when does JR feel the need to increase the draft zone from 12m to 20m

While I love podcasts and listen to a number of them regularly, it's not something everyone should do. ST falls into this. The podcast dragged and it seemed no one knew Jimmy's wit and sarcasm, so many things fell flat. I've tried to listen to a number of them, but IMO the ST voices do not lend themselves to podcasting and the sound modulation was horrific. Comments will start out so loud so as hard to listen to, then drop off, and the pacing is not there. I appreciate the attempt, but stick to what one does best after failures. The site has fallen and needs attention; that's where the efforts should be.

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Kiwami Racing Team

So I didn't get a yes or no, but kind of a vague "it should be fine as it was designed and manufactured by a real company".

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
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Rules follow WA, not some online shop. Lol. If it's on the list, you're good to go. It's pretty straight forward whether you can wear a shoe or not. The method of measuring is also clearly documented, but you don't need to worry about that part anyway.

So front ends like the prints4watts are illegal?

If it is legal, we need something more specific than “you can’t 3d print things”. That seems a bit too vague.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/...ona_Was..._8558.html

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blog

Someone doing it professionally is fine.

Someone doing it in their garage is not.

That's the line they drew.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Doesn’t SLF motion do most of his work out his garage or at least used to?

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blog

It would be smart of them, anybody who makes parts, to send their product lines to Ironman/JR and get approval. Then give customers confidence by applying an approved sticker or small card in the box or....or...or....

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

It would be smart if anybody who makes decals does some artwork now; ready for orders, to "give customers confidence by applying" a 'recognisable' sticker.

This "clarification" from IM raises a lot more questions and provides no real answers. Sloppy language being used where clarity is needed.

3d printing is out now too? At the extreme end Ganna's hour record bike is printed. At the other end there's 3d printed parts that have zero safety grounds and are not fairings. Computer mounts, for example. What's gonna happen with edge cases like 3d printed bottle cages, stem caps, bar end shifters, tool boxes? Does it need to be a fairing AND 3d printed to be disallowed, or is anything that is either 3d printer OR a fairing disallowed?

It's okay if made by a company? Has this guy seen the quality of some Amazon/Alibaba products? Being manufactured in someone else's garage is not the marker of quality he thinks it is.

The grounds for the rule change is safety? It irks me when people hide behind this shield. Closed courses, or at least volunteers at more corners, getting rid of double loop courses, the road quality at some of the races. There's low hanging fruit for safety improvements and this is not it. But $$

I'm not buying any of this. IM is embarrassed by the new look of some DIY aerodynamic bodges. Duct tape, jersey bottle, sloppy 3d printed fairings, and are pulling a UCI to get their image back to what they think is cool. Additionally, as has been said many times, this forces anyone who wants to be competitive into incredibly expensive cockpit products, on top of everything else.

Let's be honest, images of Joe Skipper with the wing bottles and kitchen sink stuffed down his jersey isn't exactly inspirational to Instagram users being advertised triathlon stuff. Not as much so as someone like Ditlev looking incredible on what's basically UCI legal setups. Subpar parts and ugly setups are not getting new entrants. $$$

I wouldn't be overly surprised if this is the first move towards having "IRONMAN (tm) APPROVED" products. If you want to race an IM, it needs to be on an either a UCI bike or an IM approved bike. And of course to get IM approval would require a small licensing fee paid to Ironman. Again, $$$.

I swear every time IM does something curious the answer is always money.

That was my loose interpretation of where things are headed -- that we're going to see a move to eliminate a lot of "homegrown" engineering (anybody remember TJ Tollakson's use of cups as aerobar pads almost 15 years ago?) and there'll be things that are approved / not approved for use. I doubt it means IM doing its own safety testing, but you get the general picture.

I doubt that means dollars in the way you might think it is... But if we're thinking creatively, it might be a page in IM's store of "approved" aero hydration / storage options, with X brands and IM receiving some part of the drop ship fee.

The pretty clear message was that if it came from a bike brand, or Profile, or XLAB...carry on.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Would love for you to expound upon the idea of "the site has fallen." What are we not doing that you think we should?

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

JR has introduced very noisy standards that have the punitive outcome of low-noise rules. See Kahneman, rules vs standards.

Garage vs legit company is very noisy. How many companies began in garages as side hustles? example of a low noise rule: parts must pass ISO and that ISO certification can be provided.

Aero fairings would benefit from a similar low noise rule that honors the spirit of innovation in triathlon that makes it better than UCI burdened sports.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

So the boxes for each bike model/size I sell would need to get certified? Who pays for that?

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Tell you what -- DM me, I'll get you in contact with Jimmy, and go from there.

The rules aren't going to be re-written for 2024 -- but perhaps your expertise could be useful in helping craft clearer ones for the 2025 rulebook.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Outside of IRONMAN rules, consumer facing products need to/should face basic safety tests. Testing is rather cheap. For example, a full battery of tests for our saddles, including one where a machine runs overnight for 200,000 cycles, costs a mere $300.

This seems like a pretty low bar to clear for storage parts that could break off and land in the road where other people are trying to race. And this example of a suggestion has low noise compared to garage vs. legitimate company.

This is just one example for how to reduce noise in rules. Shoe height is a very low error/noise rule (but that doesn’t make it a sensible rule). High error (noise or bias) rules are hard to enforce and threaten to be so ambiguous that they’re annoying and deter race participation. What’s homemade vs a legitimate company? Home based LLC vs office-based LLC? Is that form of error a bias?

There’s a reason good rules are the result of people familiar with what it takes to create low noise rules meeting with stakeholders, in this case race participants and manufacturers, to understand what is the fairness and safety being sought and where do poorly designed rules hurt the sport and the brand. But seriously #FreeSkipper

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I’m with laseranimal here. Yes, it’s easy enough to search for what shoes are legal or not but that means the athlete even knows such a rule exists or that their shoe might be out of compliance. That responsibility 100% falls onto the athlete and I won’t argue that. My guess is the majority of folks lining up at a marathon or Ironman or 70.3 pay zero attention to the specs or legality of their running shoes. I think the Hoka Skyward X is going to be a problem child at races. Yes, the responsibility of the athlete but doesn’t mean it isn’t going to be an issue. Look at how many people show up at the airport with guns and knives on them and EVERYONE knows you can’t do that. What percentage of athletes read the IM competition rules or the athlete guide cover to cover? My guess is the minority.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I've been selling boxes for 5 years, and have sold over 2200 of them for a variety of bike models. I've had 2 customers whose boxes broke in that time, both were manufacturing defect. Would I need to have each box tested on each bike? I sell 90+ different boxes, as they are not one size fits all, each box is designed to fit a specific bike model and size. The Cervelo line of bikes, P5, P5 Disc, P series and P2/P3 each require a different box for each size, given that, for those bikes alone I have 42 boxes between the rear boxes and bottom bracket boxes.

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Hear hear!

Jimmy’s responses were a bit vague and a bit evasive, but I got the impression that he believes all those bodges were not legal last season at all and Ironman has now only made the wording more precise to remove all doubt.

If my understanding is correct… where are all the DQs in 2023 races?

Also, I struggle to believe that the said aero bodges violate “the spirit of the rules” - and that the essence of said spirit is that you’re only supposed to install products “made by a company”.

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"FTP is a bit 2015, don't you think?" - Gustav Iden

Could you imagine several officials at races telling people oh you can't use that 3d printed extension bc it's not from a company we've heard of yet you can use that same looking 3D printed part bc we've heard of X company.

Could be quite the CF and several pissed off people

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Brian Stover USAT LII
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If safety is the ultimate concern, maybe Ironman just needs companies to have a certificate product liability insurance. Of course, in a global market, that gets tricky.

I doubt the bento box people are actually buying product liability insurance. I also doubt they are getting CE certified, if they are European, and that's a real pain for a lot of products.

At some point it's better to simply say buyer/user beware. I've noticed once you actually go down the legal liability route, and if you take that as a principled stand, you really end up wasting a lot of money paying other people to hand you papers that still don't make your products any safer. I'm involved in this professionally on multiple levels and it's really just something that adds on costs to the consumer without increasing safety.