I would encourage you to join a local Masters Swim Team over the winter. It works out to about $15/mo and will do wonders for your swim.

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

Nothing beats having a real life on-deck coach for the swim, the caveat being that they need to be a decent coach and engaged with you i.e. actually coaching. I've heard horror stories of masters coaches who subscribe to the "busywork" model of coaching, and the opposite end of "here's the workout on the board, go do it". you want someone who will engage.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

been there done that.

There's a local masters club I swam with for four months. I was perpetually stuck in the same lane with the old ladies. I would lead freestyle sets, and would flounder on everything else. I am open to giving it another shot (plus using my vasa erg i just bought), but I was wondering if there are alternatives.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

These needn't be mutually exclusive. A good coach will also teach you.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Can you try and find a masters program focused on Tri's? I'd worry that a masters program is going to focus on making you fast in the pool (good streamline, good starts and turns) and spend time on those (which can make big differences in your pool swim times) at the expense of getting faster in open water races. Maybe find a good tri coach and hire them for some 1 on 1 swim lessons to give you a few things to work on, then train for a month working on those things, then have them back to work on the next step of improving the swim. I'd try and take a deep look into why your swim times aren't on par with your bike and run. Lack of training time? Technique flaws? Something else? Then figure out the best way to fix that problem.

What about a program like Tower26 that is open water swim focused and delivers everything online?

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USAT Level 1 Coach
Team Next Level
http://goteamnltri.com/

I'm in Denver, CO, so I'm open to any suggestions from anyone reading this for good open water coaches!

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Eney Jones seems to be the go-to swim coach of the area.

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Alex Arman

Strava

I have good results with very in depth swim analysis from my coach after taking some video. He sent back a very detailed adobe file with pictures and detailed analysis. I wasn't really a bad swimmer to start since I swam as a kid but I had a lot of technique changes to make. I swam my first olympic tri in 26 and after working with him for 2 years my last swim was 19:xx (course was a little short more like 1500 yards not meters). So, pretty solid gains for only swimming 2-3 days/week.

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https://www.strava.com/athletes/23685202

So if you don't know how to hold your body correctly in the water, how are you going to swim fast? Streamline's not just for a pushoff. Further, do you get to take 3 extra breaths every 20 strokes in a race? no? So why do you think it's ok to have crappy turns when you train in the pool? Small details can equal big gains.

I'm not picking on you specifically, but the perpetual triathlete theory that open water swimming's not really swimming somehow and should be treated differently.

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

Totally agree that those skills are important, but as a swim coach, I spend lots of time making sure my swimmers are hitting their turns perfectly because if I can spend 30 minutes of practice making them two tenths faster per 50 because they have killer turns, and great underwaters coming off those turns, then i'm going to do it. If I was training open water swimmers, I'd make sure they were competent and able to do a flip turn that kept their momentum going, but I'm not going to set aside the limited time to work on improving an OK streamline to a great streamline, or a slightly crooked flipturn to a perfect one. I see it as a triathlete has 1/3 of the time as a swimmer would have (if they both had 10 hours a week to train, that swimmer has all 10 hours to work on swimming, triathlete not so much), so I have to pick the things that give my triathlete the best return on investment of that limited time, and in a masters group focused on swimming fast in meets, some of those things would be different from what the triathlete needs to be doing in the time they have in the pool.

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USAT Level 1 Coach
Team Next Level
http://goteamnltri.com/

You at least know what your low hanging fruit is. That's way ahead of many people. You also used the word moderate. Hold that thought





You can probably get the same results your getting by assuming just bc someone is fast(ish) they can coach. Guys going 4:20 are a dime a dozen. People who coach triathletes are a dime a dozen. Triathlon coaches though are more rare. You're going to pay > $200 for excellent coaching. I'd budget ~ 50% more....minimal. That will open up many more quality coaches doors than $200 will.

My next question to you is just reading and implementing isn't enough. Do you have enough knowledge to digest everything you read then step back and plan the what to do, the when to do it, the how to do it etc and then implement?



You mentioned moderate improvement earlier. You talk about making significant improvement. Do you see the disconnect? Now this isn't to say it can't be done. The coaches I talk with get a lot of athletes who did the self coaching route. They made moderate improvements season after season. The majority of those athletes will often see 2 seasons worth of gains after 1 season of coaching. You should also learn a lot if you study what's being given to you. Maybe 1 -2 years of coaching to make those significant gains then go back to self coaching. Anyway that's something to ponder.

Whatever you do, if you get coached make sure you choose someone who won't charge you extra to analyze your swim stroke. If you go it solo make sure you find someone who will analyze your swim stroke even if you've got to pay. Suddenly $600 for 3 months of coaching becomes $800 after paying for stroke analysis.

IDK who's paying $15/mo for masters, that's a deal. Around here it's $65 or 70.

Anyway food for thought. Any questions lmk

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

All this I cant say it any better!

Lot of coaches out there but very few really good coaches.

I self coached myself for a year and here is what I found: put in most time / miles / yards ever, never took rest days, got amazingly fit, most workouts ended up in the "gray zone"...... was not "race ready" got injured more and race results went backwards to stagnant.

I went back to being coached.

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

It’s not really that different. Our masters team spends very little time devoted to starts and turns. You get couple hundred chances to improve your turn every single practice, so taking time out to just do turns given the low volume most of us have isn’t really worth it. I’ve spent a grand total of 5 minutes working on starts this year, and that was after practice was done, not during.

For young swimmers who have a ton of pool time, then the calculus is somewhat different.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

If you're deadset on using the vasa (I use one as well), then you might consider looking up Eric Neilsenn (sp?) and seeing what he has to offer as far as a coaching program for use in conjunction with it.

For the rest, my only comment is to ensure that if you're willing to spend several hundred $$$/mo. on the service of one on one coaching then you need to be certain you want to invest your time into that as well. This means providing the coach feedback, working with them when you run late at work, communicate how you're feeling, and gain a general understanding of what they're going to do if you don't provide regular feedback.

I'm similar to you speed wise and I think we might have spoken on course in PCB 2018 towards the end of the ride. I've tried a couple of times with very reputable coaches and I personally don't enjoy completely bringing someone else along for the ride - I don't enjoy the feedback process, etc. You absolutely have to want to do all of that in order to make that kind of relationship work.

Personally, I'm using a "squad" this year as kind of an in between of beating myself into the ground with TR and full on coaching and seeing how it works. So far, I like it.

to may factors to predict an outcome of x or y or do z.

a good coach gets you to the finish line the fastest and gets you there healthy.
You say you have a good bike pro run. A proper coach may show you that you are over biking and hence a slow run so your 2:12 bike 1:40 run combo could be a 2:16 bike 1:32 run combo etc.

A good swim coach doesn't just give you sets on a pool deck but gets rid of bad habits that slow pace or increase energy. Or can give you the work you need to learn a better skill. arm position , body, timing etc.

An online coach may or may now give you any of that. Also an in person coach may or many not give you any of that.

lastly. you should make the decision that makes you enjoy the training and hard work load/ intensity needed to see improvements. Swimming in your comfort zone will not set you up to race well. Running as well.

As without that you have no chance.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Two things to think about.
#1 What kind of free time do you have? What do you make an hour and how much time would you devote to learning more about triathlon? That should be easy to come up with a ballpark figure of cost to do it yourself. Don't forget it's ever evolving, so it's not a one time deal. Is that more or less than $200?
#2 Is $200 a month a quote for a coach you are looking at? Not all cost as much, but some truth to the saying you get what you pay for. Make sure you are investing in the RIGHT coach for you and your goals.

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Ryan
http://www.SetThePaceTriathlon.com
http://www.TriathlonTrainingDaddy.com
I got plans - https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...dotcom#trainingplans

i'm not your coach but i can tell you one thing you can change...

in your (signature linked) instagram profile you say:

"Why be good at one thing when you can be mediocre at three?
Always over-bike."


i can tell you with immediate success how to become a better runner.

Since you are there in the middle of Colorado, I would also suggest Eney Jones. She is a national champion masters swimmer who did triathlons as a semi pro back in the day. I see her on FB all the time with athletes she coaches, a lot of OW swimmers as well as triathletes. So apparently she knows something about how to impart her knowledge to others. And she is a real student of swimming, always keeping up on the latest and greatest, while knowing the history where all things began..

Kind of like the Tower 26 of Venice here I would say, nothing to lose with a 35 minute swim!!!

Here is an anecdote for you, I believe there is only one person in North America, that in the last decade, that comes from no sport background (ie. didn't compete in college in either SBR) but competed in Kona as an amateur and then continued to hone their craft and line up on that same Kona start line as a pro. This person was self-coached and was able to do it. What does that tell you about the absolute need to have a coach?

But yes, 35 min swims are not going to do you any good. For adult onset swimmers who progress, I say that once you get to an hour Ironman swim, it is 1,000,000 million yards to shave each minute off your time.

I am also not a fan of celebrity coaches. In Eney's case, I haven't seen any notable improvement from Angela Neath nor did I see any improvement in Kirsty Jahn who both spent some time with Eney.

The secret to swimming faster is more yards and swimming with people who are faster than you. It also involves letting your bike and run sit on the back burner at times.

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Maybe I should just reach out to him?

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

I think you’ll have to dig deep to actually determining how “self coached” LS was even early on. Barrie Shepley was big in his corner in *some* role. To what degree etc. I don’t know, but he was a very much helping LS. To the point he was the person basically behind the “chrabot swimgate” idea in Kona. So was he doing every individual workout etc., idk. Was it more of a “manager” probaly but I’m willing to guess BS provided *a lot* of guidance early on for LS.

So I’m more pushing back against this idea that LS stumbled onto tri and “self coached” himself to Kona.

There is a huge difference in being self coached and doing your own research and applying it yourself versus even being “advised”. LS seems big on having advisors and not a “coach” but that’s a huge help to have someone even give suggestions or feedback to an athlete even if that’s on limited basis. So I’d caution calling LS’s progression truly “self coached”, even if it’s admitted how “bull headed” he has been toward coaching.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I thought LS did have a background in running high school and some in college before he started doing drugs.

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What's your CdA?

I think he was a runner in his previous life.

I was simply suggesting that TG calling LS's rise into world class triathlon results "self coached" isn't correct; most especially as it's being applied in this type of discussion of:

-hire a coach

OR

-do your own research/workout planning/analysis



LS had advisor/coach/mentor even early on in his pro career (it's well documented who he initially worked with when he came to tri....the info is all out there even on ST). Maybe not in the role of controlling every workout, but this idea that LS came up with everything on his own accord, no way in hell.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

If you want to get the marginal gains you’re looking for, you’ll need a coach. The other thing that will happen when you’re swim gets faster and more efficient is your bike will improve too.

If you have any specific questions, please feel free to reach and I’m happy to share my thoughts on it.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com