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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
A less-stiff wheel will increase the effective lean angle at the interaction point of the tire and the road,

Would it? I think it'd be pretty situational. If the rider knows the bike well enough that he can ride right at the adhesion limit, then he's going to know the inflection by "feel" and put the effective lean angle at the tire to what it needs to be do achieve the necessary adhesion. If the wheel is flexing when he does that, he has to slightly increase lean above the inflection point to compensate for the flex. Whether riders can reach this level of "being the bike" I don't know. But I've seen some pro criterium riders who seem to be able to do near magical things in corners.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Trackies all ride discs, all the time, even for "criterium-ish" races like the points race. but the effective lean angle is less due to the banked track, and a smoother surface... hmmm.....
The banking is designed to keep the effective lean angle close to zero when ridden at race speeds. For the most part, there's no cornering on a velodrome.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Continental used to have a write-up on their website about testing tires and the 'stick-and-slip' effect. When you're on the edge, you can often feel this feedback from the tire of short slips and then sticking again. A well known effect in friction (used to do tribology for a living). Good crit riders are very sensitive to this and have bunches of other tricks above my ability level like applying extra force to the pedals at sketchiest points and rocking the bike to get in extra pedal turns.

Wet surfaces usually mean going down on the first slip though.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
A less-stiff wheel will increase the effective lean angle at the interaction point of the tire and the road,

Would it? I think it'd be pretty situational. If the rider knows the bike well enough that he can ride right at the adhesion limit, then he's going to know the inflection by "feel" and put the effective lean angle at the tire to what it needs to be do achieve the necessary adhesion. If the wheel is flexing when he does that, he has to slightly increase lean above the inflection point to compensate for the flex. Whether riders can reach this level of "being the bike" I don't know. But I've seen some pro criterium riders who seem to be able to do near magical things in corners.

In what situation would a less-stiff wheel deflect in a way what would decrease lean angle? And the rider increasing his lean angle would make things only worse. The riders on each bike have the same options available to them in how to maneuver the turn so let's take that variable out.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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If the rider is weighting to the inside, so the bike is more upright? Maybe??? I haven't thought that one all the way through, but that's a guess.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
If the rider is weighting to the inside, so the bike is more upright? Maybe??? I haven't thought that one all the way through, but that's a guess.

Yeah but the rider in the bike with stiff wheels can do that too.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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I know, but do the less stiff wheels move more for the same rider input?

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Well, in the end, unless we are talking about a wheel made out of twizzlers, I think the differences are so tiny that this is an academic discussion that makes no percievable difference to the rider.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Well, in the end, unless we are talking about a wheel made out of twizzlers, I think the differences are so tiny that this is an academic discussion that makes no percievable difference to the rider.

I agree, I don't think it's perceptible at all. But marginal gains, baby!!! Isn't arguing over imperceptible minutia what we do around here?

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
In what situation would a less-stiff wheel deflect in a way what would decrease lean angle? And the rider increasing his lean angle would make things only worse. The riders on each bike have the same options available to them in how to maneuver the turn so let's take that variable out.

Required lean angle is dictated by speed and radius, and the bike-rider combination is a dynamic system. The rider determines the effective lean angle to counter centripetal force and also staying under the adhesion limit of the tires. If the bike part of the system changes geometry in the middle of the turn, the rider part of the system will compensate.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I agree.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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Why would you get disc brakes and not a disc wheel if you’re trying to go fast?? Please don’t say cost or sponsorship, neither would make any sense.

At eagleman you might want to rent a disc if you don’t own one. Part of being a professional is prioritizing expenditures, I just can’t understand why a pro would show up with inferior/slow equipment unless it’s subtle self sabotage or ignorance.

On a budget I would ride Ultegra Mechanical, rim brakes, pick up a set a used wheels and that is just not an expensive proposition and as fast as anything.

A pro I know who won numerous bike legs on the shiv dumped it for a brand I won’t mention, and the thing did nothing but fuck up. Speed concepts and shivs are so cheap and so reliable.

Not trying to be a weenie, and I’m rooting for you, I just have a hard time understanding people’s decision making. Take the disc rental out of the ice cream budget.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
I've actually thought about doing a crit with a disc, but really don't want to deal with potential destroying a very expensive wheel. That and I get endless amount of crap for it. haha


I'm pretty sure USAC has rules against this.
Last edited by: jhammond: May 24, 19 14:21
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [DBF] [ In reply to ]
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DBF wrote:
Why would you get disc brakes and not a disc wheel if you’re trying to go fast?? Please don’t say cost or sponsorship, neither would make any sense.

At eagleman you might want to rent a disc if you don’t own one. Part of being a professional is prioritizing expenditures, I just can’t understand why a pro would show up with inferior/slow equipment unless it’s subtle self sabotage or ignorance.

On a budget I would ride Ultegra Mechanical, rim brakes, pick up a set a used wheels and that is just not an expensive proposition and as fast as anything.

A pro I know who won numerous bike legs on the shiv dumped it for a brand I won’t mention, and the thing did nothing but fuck up. Speed concepts and shivs are so cheap and so reliable.

Not trying to be a weenie, and I’m rooting for you, I just have a hard time understanding people’s decision making. Take the disc rental out of the ice cream budget.
A number of reasons. I am trying to go fast. I'm also trying to stand out. I believe this bike will achieve both of those things. Now I'm coming from racing on a 2012 p3c that is probably at this point becoming borderline unsafe to ride. The only reason I was on that to begin with was because I got it for $550. There are some aspects to my new bike that are essentially "sponsored", however the aspects that I am still responsible for (groupset) I went the budget route and am running 1x mechanical because I already had the shifter and a couple other parts. It is a bit funny to be running 1x mechanical on a 2019 superbike but here I am. I accepted the wheels that were given to me, and as of now I only have this one set. I truly believe my results will speak for themselves and I think I am in a good position to represent brands but I recognize that won't come immediately. I would absolutely love a disc and have definitely considered renting one for Eagleman but I don't think race day wheels even rents disc discs.

So essentially this is a "budget build" for me, in the aspects that I'm paying for. I would love to get it into a wind tunnel and see if the design is a gimmick or not but I have no doubt it will be crazy fast on flat courses.

Also on your note of why would pros show up with inferior/slow equipment; simple matter of fact that not everyone can be on THE FASTEST bike. Lets assume thats a speed concept, are we faulting Daniella ryf and Frodeno for being on a Felt and Canyon? Regardless of what are likely minor differences in speed, its pretty common knowledge that most pros aren't making a living from prize money. A bike sponsor is the dream right? In the same way that I haven't had money (and still don't) for years and have just been making the best of the equipment I have an can afford, so is each pro just getting the best position and speed they can on their bike (with the limiter here being sponsor gear instead of money).

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [jhammond] [ In reply to ]
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jhammond wrote:
Ex-cyclist wrote:
I've actually thought about doing a crit with a disc, but really don't want to deal with potential destroying a very expensive wheel. That and I get endless amount of crap for it. haha


I'm pretty sure USAC has rules against this.

UCI definitely does, USAC I'm not sure as I've seen a few people do it. I don't really feel like muddling through their useless website to check though.



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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
I thought Lanzarote had a no-disc wheel rule? Am I correct in remembering that?


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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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i remember a thread here where it was argued that the 'sail' effect from a disc is offset by a significant increase in rolling resistance. maybe there's more information floating around about that, and pros don't use them when non-optimal conditions are expected?
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Certainly in the rain you want to leave the bike as upright as possible and lean your body weight to the inside in the turn.
Obviously the weight is on the right foot and the left-hand in the left turn.
In an IM it is not a real factor but I do get a kick out railing the corners when dudes are on my wheel.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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Dude. Just get a Wheelbuilder wheel cover. They make them for any depth wheel. I have one for my Zipp 808 and it just covers the center so you can still see the cool Zipp logos. Doesn't add any significant weight and you get to use your existing wheels. No drama.

Here's my bike with a Zipp 404 front, 808 rear with wheel cover for maybe 80 bucks. https://www.instagram.com/p/Bu08UMejo_S/

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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Dude. I rode a wheelbuilder cover for 2.5 years but now I'm on disc brakes and they claim they're not compatible with any disc brake wheels. Ha believe me I would if I could. I'm sure I could fashion something up but not sure if I can in the next week.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
, and not what the math says in some incomplete equation..

So true.
Its a tansient efect when hitting a bump or step or what ever, not a steady state equation.
Other effects not allowed for inc
- changing radius of the curve, whether due to tue rider or forced by the curve or the road tightening
- the gyro forces (at 90 degrees to direction of their 'yawing' in a turn - picking the bike up or pushing it down a bit
And a load of other transient effects some of which are not linear, or are rate dependent etc.
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [buzz] [ In reply to ]
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buzz wrote:
i remember a thread here where it was argued that the 'sail' effect from a disc is offset by a significant increase in rolling resistance. maybe there's more information floating around about that, and pros don't use them when non-optimal conditions are expected?

Interesting, but why would there be a 'significant increase in rolling resistance '?

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]
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Ex-cyclist wrote:
jhammond wrote:
Ex-cyclist wrote:
I've actually thought about doing a crit with a disc, but really don't want to deal with potential destroying a very expensive wheel. That and I get endless amount of crap for it. haha


I'm pretty sure USAC has rules against this.

UCI definitely does, USAC I'm not sure as I've seen a few people do it. I don't really feel like muddling through their useless website to check though.

From the USAC rule book, section 1l1(c) (general rules)
“ Wheels may be made with spokes or solid construction”
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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Also for very sharp turns you won't be going super fast, the difference in gyroscopic effects between wheels should be limited, //

Why do you only talk about a couple turns, maybe in a race. How about the 100 that are long, sweeping, high speed ones, you know the ones that you get coming down a mountain?? You gonna choose a wheel for the 2 turns, or the 100??


And you are right, most people will not turn well enough to test the difference in holding power, but most pros do, so there you have it..

The bike wants to go straight and stay upright because of the rudder effect. It's like having a big honking fin on the back of a surf board (or waterski:). The solid disk wheels certainly are funky. The foam disk that I built which is a spoked wheel rides great but it's heavy 1300 g IIRC.

The roads we were on this weekend, the road bikes did well because of the climbing and compliance. Not one racer was using a disk. I could easily taken the roadie I was riding with on the flats but by hammering the climbs more than I wanted to, she would just catch up.

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Re: Are Pros choosing not to ride a disc wheel on hilliest IMs just because of the 350gr aprox weight difference? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Why would a disc be more likely to slip out on a sharp turn?
My Super9 definitely is a hell of a lot stiffer than my spoked 808. It's very, very noticeable.
There's absolutely NO GIVE from the disc when cornering.
So, instead of allowing some flex, the disc, even when tires are at optimal pressure, kind of skips across the road, if I come into a turn "hot".

A spoked wheel, even a deep-profile one, provides a lot more compliance, and a smoother ride, compared with a disc.

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Last edited by: philly1x: May 28, 19 18:59
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