As has been written, you're not going to find significant differences between any of the leading wheelsets. Most everyone spends the overwhelming majority of their time from 0-7 degrees of yaw, so that brings everything closer still.

HED's shape has shown to be least effected by tire choice (Cannondale is not the only company licensing that shape) so they're a safe bet if you can't test on your specific bike.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

I agree. I just like the science, that's all. It's fun. Most folks if they had to buy one thing instead of own a shed of wheels, sure something that does well at most things.

But, I can choose.

I'm also interested in the statistical distribution of those angles. That's why I'm still certain that if I've got good roads I can use the narrow HED trispoke I've got. Sure, wind gets over a certain set of yaw angles I'd change it out for my 6+ front.

For that scenario: numbers up for debate, haven't fixed my sheet yet....
Yaw less than 10deg: 50%
Yaw 10deg to 15deg: 32%
Yaw over 15deg: 18%

Change that to 42kph and 8kph wind, that changes to the entire list being under 10 degrees yaw. Which is pretty typical where I live. Down east it gets 10 to 15mph some days. But mostly it's days from 5 to 10mph.

I guess if you know, have a spreadsheet on the distribution, and have choices.......makes deciding easier.

Actually, thanks for making me think about this as now I have a handy spreadsheet I can input local wind speed and direction into to give me the yaw distributions for my rides! I know, BBS, but don't wanna pay and I'm a nerd.

Thanks Jim. One of the selling points of the P5 disc for me over my old P4 was the ability to run wider wheels/tires for comfort, so the Heds with their 21mm internal rim width (vs. 19mm internal width on the Zipp or Enve) makes a compelling case.

If I could afford a PRO 4-spoke front wheel I would use it just because it looks cool. Looking fast is half the battle. Of course those wheels are tubulars, so you'd have to deal with that as well...

Corima has a clincher version as well

Yeh if your average speed is 60kph!

I have both of these wheelsets and have them both set up with GP5000 tires and latex tubes and I'm using them on a P5D and PX Series bike. There's a noticeable weight difference between the two sets, I haven't tested them or anything but I generally ride faster with the 808/Super 9. For upcoming Ironman St. George I'll probably opt for the Enves just because of the hills more I would typically pick the Zipps every day over the Enve.

I also think the 808 NSW/Super 9 Special Edition with the NSW graphics looks great on both of my bikes! I don't think the Super 9 is tubeless compatible though.

Why do you say Zipp has better resale value than Enve? I only ask because I have a brand new set of Enve's that no one seems to want.

The math doesn't really jive with this statement.

At even 40kph and a 10kph wind, no yaw angle reaches 15 degress and only 27% are 12 degrees to 14.99 degrees. The magic on those charts are all around 10 to 17 degrees with the huge gains around 15 to 17 degrees. It's good magic worth paying attention to, but I think since the big gains are there that's where our eyes go.

You need wind speeds around 12 to 15mph at some serious side angles to really get lots of time accumulation at those angles.

I don't doubt the tech works, and it is a help. It'd be something I'd choose my 6+ versus an old HED 3c on for a course. I think people just need to more carefully do the math for themselves to make choices. I assumed I was way too slow for a trispoke to work, but the math says that if the wind isn't from the side and hard.....it pays out.

At least I have two wheel choices I can use.

Also, don't forget that when going downhill your yaw will straighten out a lot. And the yaw isn't as big a deal if you're out of the skis and going up a slow hill at like 8 mph.

If so, at 6' 185lbs, I must be morbidly obese. Who knew?

Not to mention that on the road, the wind is much more variable and turbulent than in a tunnel.

Most people will see over 10 deg. Only on those special days will it be close to 0

Ok, dummy question.

I figure the trispoke suffers in the yaw department due to the large profile from the side presented by the 3 spokes. Sure.

But what about all those flat bladed spokes that at yaw the wind would be hitting at bad ways? The animations are always of the tire/rim interface. But if you've got 18 front flat spokes suddenly at yaw, that couldn't bode well.

Also, it seems the trispoke at low yaw never has any spokes presenting themselves to zero yaw. Only the hub. So, spoked wheels do. The spokes aren't straight down from rim to hub. Hence why aero spokes matter so much.

If this matters enough that it's a known thing for using aero spokes, wouldn't they also present a solid impact at "yaw"? Not just the rim/tire interface?

Probably a lot to unwrap there.

All I know is my tri spoke looks ****ing cool.

And let's face it, that's all that matters. 😂😂😂

yeah I read this and was like oh no.

6'3 215 :D lol

That old set up you had.

Go with that.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Lol, yes!

And, I can imagine the sound of that thing as you pass someone must be something else. Ulrich sure heard it here at around 6:00 in.

Here is “the one whose name shall not be said” in a TT on an HED 3c. I own one, it sounds like that.

Fast forward to 4:00, then close your eyes and listen.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sOQflZqzn_U

OMG - some of you guys need a hug. ;-)

Of there is a lot of stuff here. Some of the best comparison data comes from Aerocoach. They have track tests with the HED 6+ and the H3+. I have both (and a 9 and 5.... too many wheels) and when I measure them with the calipers the rim profiles are identical. So the only difference is the hub and the spokes. In the Aerocoach testing the 3+ Has about 1/2 watt less drag.

Your intuition is generally correct, but some of the gains of the TriSpoke are also lost. Specifically, the TriSpoke creates high pressure pulses as the wide spoke passes between the fork legs. Aerocoach tested with a P5, which has a narrow fork that exacerbates the high pressure pulse. Wide fork bikes like the Speed Concept tend to work better with a TriSpoke and if I remember Josh Portner's comment correctly, the wide fork is around a watt to 1.5 watt improvement at 30 mph.

So ya the performance of a TriSpoke is dependent on a lot of things and you really need to have a good combination of frame and wheel.

All this being said, Aerocoach has windtunnel data for the Shimano TriSpoke. I don't remeber all the details, but I seem to remember thinking that it would be THE WHEEL for a slower rider at Kona. It didn't stall nearly as quickly as the deeper wheel they had for comparison.

For grins, I compiled the following:



If I assume that, generally speaking, I want the following:
- Deepest front wheel
- lightest disk
- widest internal and external rim width (to best blend with a wider tire)
- tubeless compatible

...then the Hed Vanquish seems like a pretty compelling set of wheels. Thoughts?

Just a statement by feel on this. By and large Zipp still doesn't do a whole lot of discounting and are easily thought of as the premier wheel brand. Enve wheels seem to be had at some serious discounts via the various teams these days. Upwards of 50% off sometimes. This puts pressure on the resale value as many people bought the wheels for a serious discount and are either making money or losing less off by selling at a steep discount to MSRP. I had a set of 7 8s a few years back when they were pretty new with the Carbon hubs with ceramic bearings. Rear was brand new, I only used the 7 for a few races and I was shocked how long it to took to sell and the price.

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Looks like a no-brainer to me!

I had heard this. I thought I also heard though something about a rotating trispoke almost generating propulsion or some witchcraft in some scenarios?

Your old quote yourself actually!


I guess lucky for me, I run mine on a Felt DA with the Bayonet fork. Which appears wide to me.

What are the measurement errors? 1/2 Watt is nothing.

6’ 200 lbs full size pack but must be super morbidly obese here lol

Who else licenses their shape?