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Rackets in the sport
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Is the IM brand doing everything it can to be a racket?

I have done three IM races and several 1/2 IM races, all with the IM brand. I'm proud of having done those. I'm glad there is an organization that puts on these events and creates the "brand" for IM, which in turn continues to grow the legacy of "YOU are and IRONMAN!". The organization on race-day and before and after is great. The races themselves create incentives and goals for participation, and in many cases, change people's lives and health for the better.

But I wonder about the selling of the brand and the sport. IM races are extremely expensive. I know that a big part of that is needed for organization, support, and race-day planning. But I worry that a big part of that is trading on the IM "brand." I feel it's as much a selling of the brand for "membership" as much as it is a race. They are selling the lifestyle as well, for a profit.

One case in point to me about a racket is the "All World Athlete" program. The long and the short of it is that for the cost of 3 or more entries in races per year ($2000+) in IM BRANDED RACES ONLY, participants get a "ranking," swim cap, preferred numbers, and some PDF certificates. The way the rankings work is that participants get points for each race. The more races, the more points. It seems to me that quality points overall for 1-2 FOP finishes in a year mean less overall than points from 3-4 races. It seems to me that it's really a way to reward people for entering as many races per year as they can. An incidental benefit is that those who are a part of this program can also have one more thing to talk about.

I can look at this two ways. I can not get caught up with it and just be glad for people that they are a part of a healthy lifestyle and participate in lots of races over a year. Or, I can see this as really just a way by IM to keep getting the entry fees and reward those who can pay $2000+ per year to enter (NTM travel, lodging, equipment, time off, etc). The reward isn't necessarily for quality.

How should I look at this?

I'm steeling myself to get flamed by additional comments, but please, take it easy.
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Re: Rackets in the sport [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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If you used the frickin search function you would see that the issue has been discussed ad nauseam without resolution. Noone has a gun to your head forcing you to play.

Meanwhile break out the popcorn as the WTC haters and supporters march out the same arguments.
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Re: Rackets in the sport [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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My local race company puts on great events, mostly of sprint and olympic distances. They also have a series competition that honors the top athletes who complete 4 or more of their races. To qualify for their award, you have to do 4 sprints or 4 olys, there is no cross over. The races are weighted by the number of participants and how well you did. There's a banquet at the end of the season. Certificates. Some of the athletes absolutely love this competition and the chance to be recognized for effort in multiple events in addition to the daily competition. Other athletes couldn't care less. Most don't even know it's a thing.

Sound familiar? Would you call this a racket too? Or is the AWA thing a racket because it's the WTC and Ironman?

IMO- Anything that keeps athletes motivated, interested, and moving is a bonus for sport. It's the people that bag on the race, or the athletes, or the race company for trying to keep things interesting and celebrate success is what brings the sport down.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Rackets in the sport [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Also see: every airline and hotel loyalty program ever. No one forces you to sign up for anything.

***
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Re: Rackets in the sport [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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A racket is created by the consumer, not the company. It's the consumer's responsibility to determine what is worth the cost and what is not. If you choose to do 3 IM races to get a swim cap then that says a lot about you (not you specifically, the collective "you").
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Re: Rackets in the sport [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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What you call a racket Id call smart business. WTC has created a loyalty program that keeps people “shopping” with them.

Any loyalty program for any business is about keeping you as a customer and hopefully having you spend more.thats basic business which is what WTC is

In regards to their pricing they set their price based on expenses plus profit margin just like any other business. As long as they continue to get the return/profits they want/need then the price is correct. For anyone where the price is too high there are options but from the looks of it most prefer Ironman for their long course triathlon

Boots
Fleet Feet Rochester, NY
Fleet Feet Buffalo, NY
YellowJacket Racing, Rochester, NY
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Re: Rackets in the sport [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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I’ll put it this way, if I can gain awa status on 2 entries/finishes, it Isn’t very difficult.
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Re: Rackets in the sport [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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140triguy wrote:
Is the IM brand doing everything it can to be a racket?
...
participants get a "ranking," swim cap, preferred numbers ...

Call it what you want, WTC is just a fine example of capitalism. Supply and demand.

But alluding to what I bold typed above, this is what bothers me about the trend in WTC events. You can get preferred numbers, bike racks, etc. as a reward for your (or your club's) participation... i.e. having the ability to $pend (en masse). To me, this cheapens the "sport". I understand most people at an IM are just there for the experience, to complete it, yadda yadda - but outside of uncontrollable fiscal limiters - like Fred CEO having the $ to purchase speed or Joe Waiter going at it on a hand-me-down road bike, the competition is generally fair. You put on a race bib and go at it. But now Fred CEO can also get his special preferred bike rack, warming tent, porta potty, etc because he has a fat wallet.

I guess I should expect it from a sport that has largely become an exercise in participation rather than competition. A lot of people have turned their physical lives around through participation in triathlon and that's great. But is it so bad to still cling to/long for the purity and head to head challenge of competitive sport? Don't even get me started on TT swim starts :(
Last edited by: ripple: Oct 1, 18 5:18
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Re: Rackets in the sport [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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Nobody said you have to participate.

As an outsider to tri who is on ST to just learn about endurance sport in general, I personally can see the appeal, but it isn't for me. I get the perceived challenge and the branding that is there to show off your achievement.

Even including Haute Route or doing an Everesting and "getting your stripe", for amateur bike racing there isn't much of an equivalent that you can get a tattoo or logo the rest of the world recognizes for what you did. I give them that, even Joe Public knows what an IM is.

But...........I couldn't imagine placing 100% my emphasis and budget for a year on a single event.

I've been explained and now understand some costing of tri, as you're organizing 3 sports on the same day. I kind of get it. But at about $45 per hour if hitting the max cutoff time for a full IM, it is way way way too expensive for someone like me to consider.

I'll stick to bike racing for $45 a pop or doing something like AOMM.
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Re: Rackets in the sport [140triguy] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone else notice that IMAZ now has "Athlete VIP" packages...

http://www.ironman.com/...vip-experiences.aspx

blog
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Re: Rackets in the sport [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
If you used the frickin search function you would see that the issue has been discussed ad nauseam without resolution. Noone has a gun to your head forcing you to play.

Meanwhile break out the popcorn as the WTC haters and supporters march out the same arguments.

do my a favor. you know by now how HOT FORUM TOPICS works, right? i'd like to aggregate the BEST threads that describe this, so that you and i can point folks to them. can you point to the threads that you think historically best describe our conversation/argument about ironman?

and this isn't just huffnpuff. any of you?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Rackets in the sport [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
Anyone else notice that IMAZ now has "Athlete VIP" packages...

http://www.ironman.com/...vip-experiences.aspx
I think I just threw up in my mouth.

Nothing says competitive sports like "pay more and we'll do everything to make your experience more enjoyable". As if paying $1G there shouldn't already be the expectation of a very enjoyable event.

But hey, Econ 101, people will pay. I mean, I'm all for sacrificing the cost of a family vacation to make sure my porta-potty has a glade air freshener and someone to personally wipe my ass. My kids would much rather put a cheap medal around my sweaty torso than play at the beach for 5 days, because I am not one of those who will combine my semi-athletic endeavor into a destination race. How else would I be able to put all my focus on myself?!?
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Re: Rackets in the sport [ In reply to ]
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Rackets?

I thought this thread was going to be Eliot Ness and Al Capone
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Re: Rackets in the sport [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/What_happened_to_AWA_early_registration%3F_P6637755/?search_string=awa%20gold#p6637755


https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Ironman_All_World_Athlete_--_is_this_a_scam%3F_P5824075/?search_string=awa%20gold#p5824075


https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Ironman_AWA_Gear_P6224365/?search_string=awa%20gold#p6224365


https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/All_World_Athlete_Program%3A_one_of_triathlon's_biggest_jokes_P6193123/?search_string=awa%20gold#p6193123


https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/AWA_rankings_P6017300/?search_string=awa%20gold#p6017300


https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/AWA_as_a_tool_for_predicting_KQ_slots_P5668704/?search_string=awa%20gold#p5668704


https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/AWA_line-cutting_email_P5305814/?search_string=awa%20gold#p5305814


https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/All_World_athletes%2C_these_guys/gals_legit%3F_P5124792/?search_string=awa%20gold#p5124792


https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/WTC's_New_AWA_(All_World_Athlete)_Line_Cutting_Perks_and_Unique_Bib_Program_P5030509/?search_string=awa%20gold#p5030509
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Re: Rackets in the sport [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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I think IM Wisconsin has already had this for a few years, e.g., VIP experience for the athlete, not the family. Sorry to see it expanding to another venue. To the extent that it provides a different playing field for the athlete, e.g., better racking than the rest of your AG, then it's not fair. It would be like a tennis match where you could pay to make sure the sun is in the eyes of your opponent for the entire time. To the extent someone is just buying stuff that is not part of the actual race ... say a front seat at the welcome dinner, or meet a pro, etc., then I don't care how people spend there money. But from race start to finish there should be no special advantages.
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Re: Rackets in the sport [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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I'd add one more

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Cry_like_a_little_biatch_here._P1566945/

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Rackets in the sport [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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great. thx. too many. the first one i looked at had 9 posts, the second had 115. and, these are all apparently about the all world athlete concept. which is fine. that would be a sub-category of ironman complaints?

help me help you. when you say "use the search function" the HOT FORUM TOPICS widget is a fairly robust tool to help navigate this. for example, if you want to know about afib, or high hamstring tendonopathy, i'm archiving the BEST and most helpful threads on each.

so, i'll help. but you (and i don't mean just you, but all slowtwitchers) have to do a little too. this is a crowdsourced effort, where i do have the work and you other 90,000 do the other half the work. please do your half.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Rackets in the sport [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
Nobody said you have to participate.
As an outsider to tri who is on ST to just learn about endurance sport in general, I personally can see the appeal, but it isn't for me. I get the perceived challenge and the branding that is there to show off your achievement.
Even including Haute Route or doing an Everesting and "getting your stripe", for amateur bike racing there isn't much of an equivalent that you can get a tattoo or logo the rest of the world recognizes for what you did. I give them that, even Joe Public knows what an IM is.
But...........I couldn't imagine placing 100% my emphasis and budget for a year on a single event.
I've been explained and now understand some costing of tri, as you're organizing 3 sports on the same day. I kind of get it. But at about $45 per hour if hitting the max cutoff time for a full IM, it is way way way too expensive for someone like me to consider.
I'll stick to bike racing for $45 a pop or doing something like AOMM.

Non-IM branded races like the Great Floridian in Clermont, FL, offer an iron race for $150-$200 if you register early. Similarly, most local half iron, Oly, and sprint races are $50-$100.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Rackets in the sport [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
Nobody said you have to participate.
As an outsider to tri who is on ST to just learn about endurance sport in general, I personally can see the appeal, but it isn't for me. I get the perceived challenge and the branding that is there to show off your achievement.
Even including Haute Route or doing an Everesting and "getting your stripe", for amateur bike racing there isn't much of an equivalent that you can get a tattoo or logo the rest of the world recognizes for what you did. I give them that, even Joe Public knows what an IM is.
But...........I couldn't imagine placing 100% my emphasis and budget for a year on a single event.
I've been explained and now understand some costing of tri, as you're organizing 3 sports on the same day. I kind of get it. But at about $45 per hour if hitting the max cutoff time for a full IM, it is way way way too expensive for someone like me to consider.
I'll stick to bike racing for $45 a pop or doing something like AOMM.


Non-IM branded races like the Great Floridian in Clermont, FL, offer an iron race for $150-$200 if you register early. Similarly, most local half iron, Oly, and sprint races are $50-$100.

we are just finishing up (getting ready to release) a poll we'll send to annual members of TBI (our industry org). we asked (and many of you took our survey) what you think fair prices should be for oly, half and full if a sprint was priced at $75. only 3 said a full should cost $750. but, only a third said it should cost $250. most chose either $350 or $500 as a "fair" price based on a $75 charge for a sprint.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Rackets in the sport [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I focused on AWA because that is the specific element the OP on this thread was complaining about and calling a racket. If you want to open it up to any complaint about WTC, then the sky is the limit. But some of the major subcategories on ST would be:

- Ironman events are too expensive
- Ironman is bad for the sport (aka killing off independent races)
- Ironman does not test for doping enough
- Ironman world championship is not legit - aka, a for-profit, not under ITU, pay to play, etc.
- Ironman races are cookie cutter
- Ironman world championship should not include Legacy, lottery, e-bay, friends, etc. in
- Ironman is evil

Does that cover it? That will be an extensive list of threads and the community will need to help you there.
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Re: Rackets in the sport [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
I focused on AWA because that is the specific element the OP on this thread was complaining about and calling a racket. If you want to open it up to any complaint about WTC, then the sky is the limit. But some of the major subcategories on ST would be:

- Ironman events are too expensive
- Ironman is bad for the sport (aka killing off independent races)
- Ironman does not test for doping enough
- Ironman world championship is not legit - aka, a for-profit, not under ITU, pay to play, etc.
- Ironman races are cookie cutter
- Ironman world championship should not include Legacy, lottery, e-bay, friends, etc. in
- Ironman is evil

Does that cover it? That will be an extensive list of threads and the community will need to help you there.

fine. let's then whittle this down into ironman complaints that are legitimate (versus those unworthy of the cry like a biatch thread). because, also in our TBI survey is a tally of the races YOU ALL choose to do, and if you choose a half (for example), which used to be entirely non-IM, now it's dwarfed by IM, that is, you all freely choose to do those races in place of others.

so, no, not the IM does not test for doping enough unless you're also willing to open this up to life time, challenge, IMG, motive, etc., which to my knowledge doesn't test for doping at all.

give me real categories and real threads.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Rackets in the sport [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
burnthesheep wrote:
Nobody said you have to participate.
As an outsider to tri who is on ST to just learn about endurance sport in general, I personally can see the appeal, but it isn't for me. I get the perceived challenge and the branding that is there to show off your achievement.
Even including Haute Route or doing an Everesting and "getting your stripe", for amateur bike racing there isn't much of an equivalent that you can get a tattoo or logo the rest of the world recognizes for what you did. I give them that, even Joe Public knows what an IM is.
But...........I couldn't imagine placing 100% my emphasis and budget for a year on a single event.
I've been explained and now understand some costing of tri, as you're organizing 3 sports on the same day. I kind of get it. But at about $45 per hour if hitting the max cutoff time for a full IM, it is way way way too expensive for someone like me to consider.
I'll stick to bike racing for $45 a pop or doing something like AOMM.


Non-IM branded races like the Great Floridian in Clermont, FL, offer an iron race for $150-$200 if you register early. Similarly, most local half iron, Oly, and sprint races are $50-$100.


we are just finishing up (getting ready to release) a poll we'll send to annual members of TBI (our industry org). we asked (and many of you took our survey) what you think fair prices should be for oly, half and full if a sprint was priced at $75. only 3 said a full should cost $750. but, only a third said it should cost $250. most chose either $350 or $500 as a "fair" price based on a $75 charge for a sprint.

Ya, I remember that poll and I know $150-$200 would be "bargain basement" prices and only available if you register 9-12 months in advance. I could see $350 as a fair price.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Post deleted by ericmulk [ In reply to ]
Re: Rackets in the sport [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Dutch Iromans are canceled because IM did not gain enough profit from it. Yet the matches where very popular.. https://trikipedia.nl/...ironman-betreft-tbc/ (Dutch) Hopefully the void will be filled by others...
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Re: Rackets in the sport [pointless_chip] [ In reply to ]
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pointless_chip wrote:
Dutch Iromans are canceled because IM did not gain enough profit from it. Yet the matches where very popular.. https://trikipedia.nl/...ironman-betreft-tbc/ (Dutch) Hopefully the void will be filled by others...

could you tell us the gist of that article to which you refer?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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