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Racing at 10k+ altitude questions - fatigue vs. power drop
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I'll be doing the Leadville MTB stage race this summer and then the Leadville 100 one day race in 2020.

Much of the course is over 10k feet and climbing as high as 12.5k. There are 2 climbs that are going to be at least 45 minutes and 1:15 respectively.

I have done some recreational riding above 10k and the power loss is pretty extreme. According to Joe Friel's chart, I can expect to lose around 20-25% of my FTP between 10k and 12k feet.

My FTP at sea level should be ~300 at the time of the race, so I expect I could be climbing at my limit at around 230 watts. If 230 watts is going to create the same fatigue/stress as as riding near FTP, I don't want to burn that much effort climbing when the race is 9-10 hours.

What I'm wondering is whether an hour+ at 230 watts at altitude is going to create similar fatigue/stress as an hour at 300 at sea level? Or is the altitude just limiting my ability to push beyond 230 and I'm not creating much fatigue because I can't make much power? I know I'll be breathing really hard at altitude based on past experiences, but I haven't done enough hard efforts at altitude to really understand how fatigue works.
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Re: Racing at 10k+ altitude questions - fatigue vs. power drop [bluto] [ In reply to ]
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This was a most recent assessment of impact of altitude. There is of course some individual variance (due to oxygen efficiency in individuals) but this should help you gauge *relative* intensity.

David

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
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Re: Racing at 10k+ altitude questions - fatigue vs. power drop [bluto] [ In reply to ]
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You are going to feel similar fatigue, especially over a 9-10 hour duration. The altitude causes you to burn more carbohydrates for fuel (ie shifts your fat burning zone to the left and then some) so even at the lower wattage you will deplete your glycogen stores at a similar rate as you would at the higher sea level FTP. Maybe you have a bit more time to depletion at 850kjs/hr vs 1100 but for me at least, it has always been very easy to hit empty in higher altitudes. So that will cause fatigue and limit your performance and something to be very careful of with your pacing and nutrition strategies.

Also the central fatigue from pushing near your limit will be similar at 230w as it does at 300w. Your body still needs to pump out the same amount of stimulus to the sympathetic nervous system to keep you thumping along at the same high HRs. You will be in and out of similar amounts of lactate with the inevitable punches on the course. The actual muscular demands of 230w vs 300w are a small factor compared to this other stuff. You might feel a bit more springy after prolonged FTP efforts at 10000ft vs. 0ft but don't count on it. I can guarantee that if you go into the red for too long you will feel much worse than usual.

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Re: Racing at 10k+ altitude questions - fatigue vs. power drop [Jordano] [ In reply to ]
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Jordano wrote:
You are going to feel similar fatigue, especially over a 9-10 hour duration. The altitude causes you to burn more carbohydrates for fuel (ie shifts your fat burning zone to the left and then some) so even at the lower wattage you will deplete your glycogen stores at a similar rate as you would at the higher sea level FTP. Maybe you have a bit more time to depletion at 850kjs/hr vs 1100 but for me at least, it has always been very easy to hit empty in higher altitudes. So that will cause fatigue and limit your performance and something to be very careful of with your pacing and nutrition strategies.

Also the central fatigue from pushing near your limit will be similar at 230w as it does at 300w. Your body still needs to pump out the same amount of stimulus to the sympathetic nervous system to keep you thumping along at the same high HRs. You will be in and out of similar amounts of lactate with the inevitable punches on the course. The actual muscular demands of 230w vs 300w are a small factor compared to this other stuff. You might feel a bit more springy after prolonged FTP efforts at 10000ft vs. 0ft but don't count on it. I can guarantee that if you go into the red for too long you will feel much worse than usual.

Thanks, really helpful response. I'm pretty concerned about my ability to pace at altitude because I can be a slave to my power meter for long endurance races. It's not that I look at it constantly, but I'll check my normalized power periodically and can make pacing adjustments based on where I'm trending. I know that ~235 watts at sea level is something I can pretty much always maintain without digging myself into a hole as long as I'm eating enough. 235 can feel very hard 5 hours into a race and very easy early in a race and I just suck at riding based on perceived effort because it tends to lie to me. If I'm trying to adjust my "endurance" wattage for altitude, is it reasonable to just knock it down a similar percentage as I'm thinking for FTP?
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Re: Racing at 10k+ altitude questions - fatigue vs. power drop [bluto] [ In reply to ]
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For me, prolonged climbing at altitude seems to fatigue my lungs more than my legs. I can go well up Guanella pass for an hour but always collapse going up Mt Evans (3 hrs).

One tip that Nate from Trainer Road had was to try a higher gear on some of the climbs. Seems counter-intuitive but if you're really gasping for air it might give you some relief and, hopefully, not wear out the legs too much.
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Re: Racing at 10k+ altitude questions - fatigue vs. power drop [bluto] [ In reply to ]
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I think thats a good way to start, using the percentage adjustment you mentioned above. Most times I find I can get a little closer to sea level power at z2-3 effort than z4. Again, that is probably an effect of flirting with lactate and the more profound effects of oxygen debt at altitude. Its an individual thing though and the best way to find out is to test. If you are there ahead of time like 5-7 days out you could do a 3-5 hr ride with a 10 minute effort at z3-4 (altitude adjusted wattage) every 45-60 mins. Pay attention to how it feels, your HR and fatigue build up in the later efforts. If 235 is a max effort in hours 3-5, you know that you should keep your efforts lower on race day. If you feel strong on the last one you can probably use climb at 90% of that FTP for your long race day climbs and recover well.

The power meter is super useful at altitude, you just have to figure out your pacing numbers ahead of time not on race day. If you can't get any real rides in up there beforehand, just start super conservative and gradually bring it up with 235w as a cap. In a 10 hr race there is lots of time to make up for a more conservative start.

Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

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Re: Racing at 10k+ altitude questions - fatigue vs. power drop [Jordano] [ In reply to ]
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Jordano wrote:
I think thats a good way to start, using the percentage adjustment you mentioned above. Most times I find I can get a little closer to sea level power at z2-3 effort than z4. Again, that is probably an effect of flirting with lactate and the more profound effects of oxygen debt at altitude. Its an individual thing though and the best way to find out is to test. If you are there ahead of time like 5-7 days out you could do a 3-5 hr ride with a 10 minute effort at z3-4 (altitude adjusted wattage) every 45-60 mins. Pay attention to how it feels, your HR and fatigue build up in the later efforts. If 235 is a max effort in hours 3-5, you know that you should keep your efforts lower on race day. If you feel strong on the last one you can probably use climb at 90% of that FTP for your long race day climbs and recover well.

The power meter is super useful at altitude, you just have to figure out your pacing numbers ahead of time not on race day. If you can't get any real rides in up there beforehand, just start super conservative and gradually bring it up with 235w as a cap. In a 10 hr race there is lots of time to make up for a more conservative start.

All makes sense, thanks. I'll be in Leadville just 3 days before the stage race this summer, so I'm not planning any big efforts before the race. I'm doing the stage race to get a feel for the altitude at race pace and recon the course, but also hoping for a good result to improve my start position for 2020. If I blow up on a stage, hopefully I'll learn something from it. None of the stages should be much over 3 hours (I hope), so I won't get the perspective of a long day on the bike at altitude, but hopefully enough to get a feel for how my body reacts. I'm planning to arrive at leadville 7 days prior to the 2020 race.
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Re: Racing at 10k+ altitude questions - fatigue vs. power drop [bluto] [ In reply to ]
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Hi, we can help you out here as we commissioned some work on this topic for a future calculator (on cyclingapps.net) on altitude effects from all the published work to date. Actually we already built a draft model which works with fairly high precision and I ran some numbers for you......

At 12,500 feet...........
Oxygen pressure is 60% and temp difference vs sea level around 25deg cooler
Aerobic loss is 25% but there is a 35% gain (reduction) in aero drag
The overall effect is approx a 10% gain when riding on level ground (less riding uphill due to reduced aero benefit) (not adjusting for temp)

At 10,000 feet................
Oxygen pressure is 67% and temp difference vs sea level around 20deg cooler
Aerobic loss is 18.% but there is a 29% gain (reduction) in aero drag
The overall effect is approx an 11% gain when riding on level ground (less riding uphill due to reduced aero benefit)

To work out your anticipated pace based on power, send us (or post) your FTP at sea level and your anticipated average altitude (over the whole ride) and the anticipated race duration and we will send you back your optimal race pace average power....however this is only an average you still have to decide how are when to vary this according to minute by minute conditions.

ps. as we are in draft version....If anyone has different data I'd be interested in the source and correction. We also have data on the exact benefits of training at altitude, but I'll skip that for today.

best of luck with your race!
Last edited by: CyclingApps: May 10, 19 2:26
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Re: Racing at 10k+ altitude questions - fatigue vs. power drop [CyclingApps] [ In reply to ]
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CyclingApps wrote:
Hi, we can help you out here as we commissioned some work on this topic for a future calculator (on cyclingapps.net) on altitude effects from all the published work to date. Actually we already built a draft model which works with fairly high precision and I ran some numbers for you......

At 12,500 feet...........
Oxygen pressure is 60% and temp difference vs sea level around 25deg cooler
Aerobic loss is 25% but there is a 35% gain (reduction) in aero drag
The overall effect is approx a 10% gain when riding on level ground (less riding uphill due to reduced aero benefit) (not adjusting for temp)

At 10,000 feet................
Oxygen pressure is 67% and temp difference vs sea level around 20deg cooler
Aerobic loss is 18.% but there is a 29% gain (reduction) in aero drag
The overall effect is approx an 11% gain when riding on level ground (less riding uphill due to reduced aero benefit)

To work out your anticipated pace based on power, send us (or post) your FTP at sea level and your anticipated average altitude (over the whole ride) and the anticipated race duration and we will send you back your optimal race pace average power....however this is only an average you still have to decide how are when to vary this according to minute by minute conditions.

ps. as we are in draft version....If anyone has different data I'd be interested in the source and correction. We also have data on the exact benefits of training at altitude, but I'll skip that for today.

best of luck with your race!

This course is not going to translate well for the typical pace/power calculator, but my FTP is 300, target duration is 8:45, and weight of 160 lb w/24 lb bike. I'd estimate average altitude at 10.5k feet. The challenge with estimating pace/power on this course is that it's a mountain bike race and is a mix of steep climbs, descents coasting and riding the brakes (think negative power), mixed surfaces, flat sections with significant drafting (it's legal in this race), and several sections with extended walking (even the pros do hike-a-bike on some sections). See course profile below. You can use strava to sanity check power numbers by looking at times vs. power for riders with PM's. I use the bikecalc app quite a bit to estimate road segments and climbs and find it to work pretty well, but it would take a very sophisticated model to pace on a course like this with all the variability.

I could see a day where you could load a course and target finish time into your Garmin and it would be smart enough to dynamically suggest power output based on your power profile and fatigue, but it would still be tough to anticipate wind and surface conditions and account for drafting.

https://www.strava.com/...18564?filter=overall
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Re: Racing at 10k+ altitude questions - fatigue vs. power drop [bluto] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Bluto,

Thanks for the additional info.......this is very tricky event to pace, due to lots of variables but here is a ballpark using some of our calculators here (try for yourself at bit.ly/cawbonk)

300w at sea level translates to approx 246w at 10,000ft (which is the course average)

So using 246 w as a baseline for 60min then a power curve calculation estimates a 8.75 hour power as 155-161w

Estimated calories 7,400; estimated TSS 500

If you did ignore the altitude, then 300w ftp pacing prediction is almost exactly 200w at 8.75hrs.

We also have a climbing calculator, its unreleased and made by our colleague at FFT, but we ran some numbers.....

On the main columbine climb: a tough climb of 12km @ 8% ave we would advise a climbing pace of 181w (vs 155-161) (estimated climb time of 1.5hrs) [altitude corrected]

If you didn't apply an altitude correction then assuming 300w FTP (200w race power) we would advise a climbing pace of 227w (estimated climb time of 1.3hrs)

hope that helps!

CA team // help@cyclingapps.net
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