analogy is a bit off as the tiphoon is supposed to be one of the best, if not the best titanium bike out there. it's definitey pricey, but comparing the branding to a hyundai isn't really accurate.

QR makes really really nice bikes...

you get a 6/4 Ti frame that will last a lifetime.

yes $6600 is pricey. not sure what the specs are for that price though. But nothing forces you to buy one...
I wouldn't buy a $45,000 hyundai but would get a $45,000 porsche (if I could afford it)...
same thing with QR.

My analogy was perhaps a bit off. I wasn't trying to bash QR bikes. They are quite nice and fill an important roll in the sport, especially for beginners looking for good quality entry level bikes. Since ABG makes both Litespeed and QR, perhaps a better analogy would be buying a VW Phaeton for $90,000 when you can buy a porsche 911 for $80,000. I'm sure the Phaeton is a very nice car, but wouldn't you rather have Porsche? The way I look at it, wouln't you rather have a Litespeed Blade for less?
Speaking of the blade, does anyone know about the differences between the blade and the tiphoon? Are they the same ala Audi A4/ VW Passat or are they completely different?

What is the 05 price for Blade? Typically there is a few hundred dollar difference between the two.

Here are the specs for the TiPhoon:

http://www.rooworld.com/bikes/2005/kits.aspx?b=tiph

The $6600 included Real Design Carbon wheels. Not sure how much they retail for, but I'm sure there not cheap.

I saw the 2005 Blade w/ DA for $6700. At one place online. I don't know what wheels it comes with or the other specs though.
Regardless I'd rather have a Cervelo P3 AND a Trek Madone SL 5.2 for my $6700

$6,600 is too much for any bike. For $6,600, you could take a leave of absence from your job and travel around the world to train and race for four months. By the end of that four month period you'd be such an animal you could set PRs on a Huffy.

Another better way to spend $6,600--- Spend $2,000 on a bike then have a limo outfitted with a private masseuse transport you to and from your top 8 races next season. Besides having less stress and greater comfort leading into each race, the chances of each race leading to a "happy ending" are greatly increased versus riding around on a $6,600 bike.

-Marc

Notes used for calculcations:

Around the world trip:

Cost of an around the world ticket: $3,000
Cost per day to live, assuming camping, hostels, and home-stays with slowtwitch members: $35
------------------------------------------------
100 days living expenses + ticket = $6500

Limo/Masseuse:

Cervelo P2K or QA Tequilo: $2,000

4 hours limo time per race at $75 an hour = $300
4 hours masseuse time per race $60 an hour= $240
---------------------------------------------------------
Price per race for limo/masseuse combo: $540

Race bike + 8 * (limo/masseuse) = $6,320

You forgot to calculate my house payment into it ;-)

---

---

"your horse is too high" - tigerchik

Its like buying a GMC Yukon or a Chevy Yukon. You want to have "professional grade" (whatever the hell that means), then spend the extra money and buy the GMC. Nevermind they roll off the same assembly line in Janesville, WI.

Same with ABG. Maybe Herbert could correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all of the Ti bikes including the Blade, TiPhoon, Santo, Saber, etc. built and welded by the same guys in the same factory in Chattanooga. Why are the Litespeeds better bikes?

-mike

That was part of my question. Are the bikes exactly the same (material, geometry, weight, etc) with a different paint job?

To pretend that branding doesn't influence people's perception of a product is naive. If brand didn't matter people wouldn't pay $100 for a pair of jeans. Companies like ABG and GM know this and use it to their advantage. If you can get an extra $200 out of someone because you put a litespeed sticker on it, go for it.

Much unlike GM or Chevy there is nothing resembling an assembly line here in Chattanooga, plus I don't think that they really use their facility to build cars for other companies.
:-)
As for us, we have crafted some of the finest titanium bikes here for almost 20 years now, including for some of the best known European brands. They come to us because they know that we are the absolute experts with the material. It is tough to describe in detail how these bikes are created, but I can assure you that almost everyone who has seen the process no longer wonders about the cost. Along those lines, I'd like to invite everyone on this forum to come and visit us one day to see how much work and passion goes into these frames. I also encourage everyone on this forum to go visit their favorite brands and see how much work goes into their bikes, or whether they actually build any bikes at all.
Regarding the comparison between Blade and Tiphoon, they are both very high-end bikes and there are some serious differences between them such as tube shapes and geometry. I have explained these differences in a previous thread but if you have further questions you can email me. The Tiphoon and the Blade also have some similarities, but so do bikes that are created by independent brands in seperate facilities.
:-)
Cheers,
Herbert
QR / Litespeed

I didn't mean to imply you guys had an assembly line and were punching out bikes ala Henry Ford. But, I've heard before people suggesting that the Litespeed is the A brand, while the QR is for those that can't afford the LS, especially when it comes to the Ti bikes. Sure, all the models have different tubesets and geometry, but I'm talking about craftsmanship. Isn't that everything with titanium bikes?

-mike

Here's a link to the earlier thread:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...;guest=2218311#98394

hh

---

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

QR and Litespeed are both "A" brands. Each has a slightly different role to play in the road, mountain and triathlon world and each does it with outstanding results.

I've been a QR rider since the early 90's, and I really, really believe in the geometry and materials philosophy behind the bikes they make. I've been able to get off my QR and run a sub 16:30 5k, after a 10 mile bike and a 600 yard swim. And I've been able to go sub 3:10 on the marathon leg at an IM distance race, and still feel no detrimental effect from riding at an 80 degree angle.

Hell, Mercedes Benz makes cars that are easily in reach of even the plebian worker making lower-middle class wages these days, and I don't think anyone thinks any less of them because of it. I don't worry about "brand dilution" when it comes to QRs and the so-called "lower end" of their range, because even Slowman has said that there are bikes at that end in QR's lineup that wouldn't be out of place leading the bike pack at IM Hawaii.

I've won races at all distances in the past on everything from an old Superform and a Zero Gravity, all the way up to the QR Kilo Private Reserves that they used to make. In fact, I just finished up the full Great Floridian using my old '98 QR Private Reserve and I felt great getting off the bike (even smiling going up Sugarloaf hill for the second loop). In fact, I feel that the quality of the bike helped me overcome my lack of IM training this year (I only found out that I was going to be able to do the GFT about 5 weeks before the week).

As you-all can tell, I'm quite the QR fanatic ;-)

Tony

Mike,
I wasn't actually specifically responding to you nor is this one specifically meant for you.
:-)

As for our bikes, there is no A brand or B brand, nor are all the other companies who ask us to build bikes for them considered C brands.
We have some of the finest craftsmen/artisans in the world working with utmost passion on all of our titanium bikes, no matter what brand they are. Our tooling and technology here is absolutely unique and is a result of 20 years of experience. We are also one of very few companies who can claim that they create all their own tooling, fixtures and dies.
There is one part of the shop though that is completely different and these craftsmen don't touch all the bikes. By that I mean is that within our facility we have a complete custom shop that deals only with custom bikes.
But talk is cheap, come see for yourself.
:-)
Herbert
QR / Litespeed

As a two time BLADE owner ('02,'03) and near future Tiphoon owner ('05) I felt compelled to weigh in with a pair of pennies.

Ever since day one I have always viewed these two bikes as sister bikes. Each has been meticulously refined to fit a different type of rider. Why, you might ask, am I switching if I am the same body and they are the same bike.... well for one they are not the same bike (consult highlighted numbers below). I have, for the past two years, trained and competed at the shorter Triathlon distances (Half Ironman and down). The agressive positioning (close to 80 degree angle) on the BLADE has suited me very well for this, including allowing me to run very well off the bike at Vineman and qualify for IM-KONA. However, after my experiences at KONA and IM-Moo, and with my desire to perfect my IM-distance racing ability it has dawned upon me that the agressive position simply will not work for 112 miles. I have found that after riding very hard and at such a steep angle for that length of time leaves my hip flexors quite burnt out. At times during both races I would find myself shifting back in the saddle only to find the tightness and fatigue in my hips subside. Therefore my need of a slacker angled bike is then fullfilled by the 76 degree TiPhoon. Same body+different distance and riding approach= different bike and geometry.

Also, from those who I have spoken with that have toured the factory or that work there (KB, Herbert) I hear that the process is 1) incredibly labour intensive and 2) the material being worked with VERY tempermental. As for the price, it really is not about how expensive it is but rather how inexexpensive it is. We (Ti riders) should all give a big thanks to the boys in Chattanooga for having the economy of scale to offer these bikes to us at (yes 3x the value of my car :-) the 6K range rather than what SEVEN or SEROTTA would charge, which I believe lies somewhere in the 8K range and actually lacks the harder to form aero tubing that the Blade, Vortex, TiPhoon, etc. provide. Thanks guys for such great products.... keep up the wonderful work.

QR TiPhoon

Size Top Tube length Seat Tube Angle

51 51 76.5

53 52.5 76.5

55 54 76.5

57 55.5 76.5

Litespeed Blade

Size Top Tube length Seat Tube Angle

51 51.5 78

53 53 78

55 55 78

57 56.5 78

---

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Gees Tony, after reading all of that besides being even more confused on the two bikes I now feel bad about the new Mercedes I just bought Diane. :~))

Aloha,

Larry

Larry,

Since you are feeling bad, sell Diane's Merc and buy me the P3 carbon. :-)

Mark

Mark,

Check your e-mail