Just becasue you are using a BP doesn't mean you can't kick. You're kick will be a bit weaker, but you can still do it, just flick your feet for that added boost. Either way i'd be willing to bet that your body position is the same or better with the PB than with out given the 2 beat kick. I say use it and use it a lot.

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I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

Aztec, one of these days I'm buying you a plane ticket here, LOL. GET SOME DECENT COACHING!!!!



My take on pull buoys? Hate them :-)

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"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

I Ain't never seen anybody waddle into the water at a triathlon with any styrofoam twixt their thighs...

play like you practice...

I've also never seen a guy do the run in a tri as set of repete 400's, but we dont question that training.- the point- Practice smart so you can play faster

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I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

Yeah, but if you predominantly race in wetsuits, a pull buoy does a good job a simulating the extra buoyancy. In most pools if you tried to do swim workouts in a wetsuit you would overheat in a few laps!

our swimcoach has us use a kickboard for pull sets. if we use a pull buoy we have bands around our ankles. and when our legs sink he hollers at us to tighten up our core to keep level. i find it throws me off and i really have to concentrate on keeping my chest pressed which when i get rid of the bouy feels so much easier.



fwiw



k

Yes the main purpose of a PB is to work on the pull. But that does not exclude it being used for other reasons. I think Aztec is looking for a tool to use that will assist him with his body position, so that he can maintain good form. The problem I think he is having is that he has to work to hard, at this point, to stay high in the water and maintain good form. A PB will help with body position, kick on no kick. The point I was making with the kick was that if he felt he was not high enough even with the PB he could still kick a bit for a little extra thrust, but no so hard as to exhaust himself. The goal would be to get to the point that no kicking would be needed to maintain body position

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I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

Sounds like reasonable advice for a novice swimmer like Aztec, but it just seems like cheating for me and any other has been swimmer. ;-)

( If we are talking of pull bouys, I gotta ask this...)

I've an uncomon knee injury and I've been swimming always with a pull bouy for a month now. The problem with my knee, didn't allow me to kick at all cause it would hurt. As the injury has been improving, I've started to gradually remove the pull bouy of the warm up and drills. I've noticed I've lost a lot of power on my kick and on the first days I really struggled to maintain my body position cause I was used to the extra bouyancy on the mid body zone.

Somehow I just feel faster with the PB then without it.. so my question is: is it good to swim with pull bouy? cause when we do, we get used to it and loose power on the kick!

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KDM

I would not disagree with your swim coach - but based on my 30 years of competitive swimming, sounds like he is coaching swimmers - not triathletes.

I would never suggest that triathletes (unless they are very good swimmers) follow the coaches suggestions.

I have always believed for the average triathlete, the pull bouy is a GREAT tool. We all now swim with wet suits. The floatation that a wet suit provides is significant, even greater than a pull bouy. The result is that position in the water with a wet suit is far different than the position that occurs when training withough a wet suit in a pool. Thus the pull bouy helps to more accurately simulate wet suit race conditions - a good practice place to be.

The idea of small kick with the pull bouy also seems accurate to me. The reason is if you race in a wet suit there is no reason to kick at all, except for a bit of balance. Again, practice simulation to race conditions is good.

Bottom line - unless you are a very strong swimmer or pro triathlete - use a pull bouy during a good portion of your swim trainng.

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rob reddy

uhm.... and if you are a strong swimmer? doesn't make a difference or can it "harm" you...?

and what do you consider a very strong swimmer...?

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Klep

I would suggest that for a strong swimmer that only competes in swimming (ether age group or masters) then reliance on a pull bouy during significant amounts of training could become harmful. Lots of reasons, but mostly with the added lift a bouy gives it makes swimming much faster. Race condition would be different, and thus the harm.



If you are a strong swimmer who is only (or predominantly doing tris) no harm in using the bouy a lot. Again, puts you in parctice conditions that are more like a race with wet suit. Also - IMO - tri swimming is about conserving energy while being as fast as you can. Swimming with a wet suit does this, legalized cheeting as I have said before. So why not practice that way.



The term strong swimmer is relative to age and background - but if I had to define - well then I would say anyone who feels at any parctice or race they could hang with the top 20% without kill'in them selves - they are strong swimmers.

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rob reddy

Yes, correct; I do have to work pretty darn hard to stay high enough. Combine that with poor breathing technique (and a bit of panic when I get half air, half water) and 50m starts to push my limits.

I have lots of work to do on the catch and pull (seems like I do it differently every time, and default to a very weak low elbow). The value I see that might be there would be to lift the legs so I can focus on the front end more, and for a LOT longer with less exhaustion. But the one time I tried it, I really found my feet dropping despite a foot-flick, and I had a heck of a time getting good body roll.

One poster's response was very counterintuitive -- suggesting that a PB makes you focus more on pressing your chest stay level, which makes it easier later without the PB. Hmm.

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Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

I suppose you could modify this advice depending on the personal strengths of the individual...if indeed a novice, a pull buoy could be a useful tool, helping the newbie get over the difficulties of body positioning in order to work solely on the stroke...though, a newbie *should* be learning the basics of proper body positioning, especially very early on, in order to instill the good habits and techniques that will be relied upon for years to come.

Most of what I have read and heard...and sometimes even practiced...says that much of the early season (and this could be correlated to the novice swimmer) should focus on technique, almost at the expense of a true aerobic workout. Swimming is so very much reliant on technique that while banging out the yardage can make you feel good, if you're doing it in such a way that is slowing you down...what have you gained?

Personally, I do use pull buoys in my swim workouts...and I am a very average swimmer at best. My recommendation to someone just starting out would be to (a) get a good coach/teacher and work on the proper technique, and (b) ditch the buoy for now. Relying on the buoy at this point will not pay off in the long run..er, swim.

I agree with Foolish tri Guy- Just one point- The non Wet Suit race. A good many of race sprints and Oly dist where many times it simply does not makes sense to wear a wet suit. Or in July Aug water temps can get to high to wear one. But either way wetsuit or no wetsuit a PB still makes sense for the avg Triathlete. Swimming is a sport that in order to swim fast you need to swim more, but in order to swim more your need to be able to swim fast. So how do we get out of that box? Use aids or tools, in this case a PB.

The trick is to know when to use and when not to. For a guy like Aztec, at this point he could possibly use a PB for 80-100% of his work out (not for sure since I have not seen him swim). He seems to know what to try to do, high hips and body, high elbows ect. it is just that he cannot do it physically right now. So he should put the PB between his legs and focus on his stroke, and building swimming strength/endurance. Slowman wrote a great article on this a while back call The high cost of good form, go here to read it. The point of the article is that it takes a certain "swimming strength" to swim with good form. But that in order to get the strength you need to swim with good form. So until that can be done with out the assistance of an aid, use the aid- PB or fins are the best bets out there.

A established swimmer can still use PB work, but not near as much as a novice maybe 10-15% of the workout. The benefit will be added pressure on the stroke, which will build strength and technique. This is especially true for the strong kickers like myself. Or it will bump up the body pos, to simulate more race pace conditions, without the need to put in race pace effort.

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I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

One point to correct there. My position in the water is excellent. I am level. I can balance with my hand straight out, no problem. In fact, my upper foot will easily break the surface, all from just pressing at the armpit. That came from lots of kicking on my side (the TI "skate" drill, with breathing).

The issue is that I have to work hard to stay there and to be high enough. I have a good sense of when those feet are dropping, so I don't let that happen, unless form is really falling apart and I am desperate for a breath.

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Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

you got it...he's a swim coach coaching a bunch of triathletes. but he's gotten me much less pathetic in the swim so i do what i can and then holler back at him when he gets annoying ;) i do notice that now i'm not loads faster with the buoy than without. before my position sucked so bad it was a huge difference.



k

It amazes me that people w/ admittedly bad positions can still swim at all (or were able to before). I have what no fewer than 3 elite swimmers have said is great position -- yet I still hold the "Worst Swimmer on the Forum" title.

And before any of you pretenders try to de-throne me, know this... I have never done more than two 25m lengths without at least a 10 second break. And after that 25m, never less than 30secs break. So, ha! I don't want to hear any of this "Oh, I suck the worst since my PR in the 1000m was 39 mins" stuff. I dream of such problems!

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Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

Patience, it will come. I also could not do more than 50 yds without a break when I decided to give triathlon a try, that was a year ago and now I can swim till I feel like stopping. You just have to keep doing it over and over and over and one day instead of stopping for a break you'll just keep swimming, first 10 minutes then 15 then 30 and before you know it you'll do an hour. Keep working on your position but it's hard to do all that right when you have no stamina. Time will make you if not a great swimmer at least someone who can be comfortable over 1500 meters. Patience....

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...If wishes were fishes we would all cast nets.

When I learned to swim I had a difficult time trying to breathe. I would have to roll way over to get a breath and then I had slowed down so much that I started to sink, that made it difficult to swim much more than 25yds at a time cuz it made me get winded very quickly.

What I did so that I could breathe is I started to take my breath as I pulled with the opposite arm, by the time I had my breath I had dropped the offside hand like you mentioned earlier. I knew that it was wrong but I figured that if I could swim I would work out the bad habit later.

I was able to swim but for a different reason than I had thought. It turned out that by breathing as I took the stroke I had increased my speed and created a trough in the water near my face. That trough made it so that I didn't have to roll as far to breath thus I was able to go a little faster and create a bigger trough which made breathing even easier.

The next mistake that I made was that I wasn't exhaling under water. I was trying to breathe out and back in when my head was turned and there isn't enough time to do that. This got me winded very quickly and maybe it's what you are doing. When my confidence came up I got more relaxed and was able to exhale under water and only inhaled when my head was turned. I find now that the deeper breath I can get on the inhale, the stronger I feel throughout the swim.

In hindsight, (in the absence of a swim coach) I would have advised myself to use fins to get my speed up and create that trough at my face that I was speaking of earlier. That would have made it easier to breathe while I worked on the rest of my swimming technique but it would be a crutch that I would have to lose later.

Timing wise, this took about 4 months of work, I had no swim coach either and learned from the TI book. I even backstroked my first race cuz I got winded in the first 200 yds.

Recently I learned to breathe on my left side and went through the same thing with pulling early with my right arm and after I had confidence I was able to breathe out under water and only in when my head was turned.

I hope this helps even a little bit.

jaretj

i've decided that looking good while being slow counts for something. :)



k

Coming from a running or cycling background IMO can cause problems with breathing in swimming. Likewise coming from a swimming background can cause problems while running or cycling. Running and cycling are sports where you breath when you need to, where as in swimming you breath when you have and opportunity. As a "hasbeenswimminer" when first taking up running and cycling I often found myself holding my breath for short periods just like swimming requires. For the runner biker the cyclic breathing of swimming can be very difficult to master. I am not sure if it is comfort level, breathing efficiency or lung capacity but the transition seems to be difficult for most runner/cyclists. I have a hunch - and only a hunch, the swimmers on average have a bit larger lung capacity, and more efficient breathing (ie can move more air in and out quicker) that runners. This is not to say one is better than the other, it to me would just be an adapation required for the sport.

One way to help this breathing that I have found (beyond the fins mentioned above) is to do no breather (hypoxic) 25's. Do a set of at least 10 of these each time you swim. Make sure you get at least as much rest as it takes you to do the 25. So if it takes you 20 seconds to do the 25, take 20 seconds rest. As you go through the set you will notice a few things- #1 will be easy, #2 a bit harder, #3 Holy crap I can't do this, #4 I think I am go to pass out (KEEP GOING and don't take extra rest) #5 Hey I am relaxing a bit, #6-10+ Hey this isn't to bad, I can do it, they feel like #2.

As mentioned above fins are a great tool to get the speed needed to stay up on the water so that breathing is easier. Remember the timing of the breath is most important! The breath should come just before the the stroking arm exits the water near the hip. So the roll of the head and body should start just before or when the stroking hand passes under the shoulder. The head should return to face down before the hand passes the shoulder during recovery. Remember not to lift the head, but roll to get the breath. The only part that needs to get air is your mouth, your eyes and forehaed cannot breath. When you lift your head something else must go down, typically your feet. With fins on you should have enough speed, to create the pocket, from which to get air without lifting the head. The best roll of the head (and body) will make your chin almost touch your shoulder.

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I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike