devashish. hey man, i think you are gonna have a good time on those skiis. last year we had zero snow until february. i went up and did the birkie on O-N-E outing on my skiis all year for 105 minutes. talking i skiied once, and then lined up in wave one at the birkie. i had been riding the PC's in the small ring on the rollers in the basement, tho. as you say, my legswere fine the whole race. good control, and easy skiing and i was in maybe 10 min over normal balls out race pace - but way in the ez happy zone. this was still better than i expected even HAD i trained due to some injuries i have in my middle age preventing me from skiing hard anymore. i remember looking down at my legs around 40 K or so and wondering just wherethehell they were getting it from - certainly it wasn't from the upper body - i have a bad shoulder nowadays and mostly drive with one arm or open field skate. i have zero doubt that PC's do as much good if not more for a fellow's xc skiing than they do for the run or riding. could be a whole new market, 'cept for xc skiiers being even more arcane or secretive than cyclists ( or certain tri-heads) in their approach to new stuff . . . . . . . . .have fun.

And you, TheChameleon (aka NotaPCer, aka Rotorcranker?), with NO experience training on PCs, choose to comment on their effects as if your opinion was based on anything than your own biases? If you tried them, maybe you'd change your colors to reflect some actual knowledge of their effects. But, actually training on them requires quite a bit of effort, unlike sniping and typing.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

please people, do not compare PowerCranks to Rotor Cranks, they are completely different and do not produce similar results. They may both make a cyclist faster, but through completely different means.

if you are a Powercrank fan - tote them

if you are a Rotor fan - tote them

but you cannot compare and contrast the two, they are 'apples and oranges' different from each other

I know this because, unlike the majority of folks here, I have trained on both,

Gary

If you had trained on them, you could cite reasons why you chose not to continue. Gary tried them and told us why he chose not to continue, and that's fine.

With no experience actually training on them, it is similar to a virgin that has supposedly studied a lot about the subject, and then tries to explain to Hugh Hefner how to successfully score.

I'm not saying that you have to jump off a cliff to know that it can kill you, but, until you train on them or actually study someone that has done the work of training on them, your opinions are heavily colored by your own biases.

You MAY BE correct, PC's do may nothing for efficiency and are a waste of time and money. But, I'd rather consult with someone akin to Mr. Hefner and get his opinion...

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

........"So you choose to credit PCs for good days, and blame other factors for bad days - rather selective and subjective interpretation of the data, wouldn't you say?
".....................

with respect, chamelean, this is an inaccurate and short-minded assessment of the ill-fated IMLP's riders experience. let me explain.......

a person can tell the difference, plain and simple. consider - let's say i taught you how to shoot an infallible freethrow with a heretofore unknown technique. you practiced it and agreed that your freethrow shooting was better and you could readily see and feel the technique was the difference. now, another guy COULD come in and try to tell you that it was not the new technique that made the difference but something else...maybe you practice time per se. but you, who knew what you did before, and could easily and with certainty T-E-L-L it was the new technique no matter what a guy who hadn't actually done what you had said.

now -- let ussay you enter a freethrow shooting contest at the Y. but, on that day you are feeling poor. you are tired, you are maybe sick, maybe you are just having a crappy day. you use the technique, but because of the day you are having you just don't do all that well. yet, within the technique you can STILL tell you are better than you were before, bad/sick day or no. so, this is NOT a double standard at all, but just a guy who can tell what is going on with himself telling it like it is. this is where we differ, i give credit to guys to know what their experience tells them wheras you seem to think you know better than the guy himself. why you think this is a valid view is quite beyond me.

what i am saying sir, is that you can tell the difference. it may look the same, but PC pedalling is different and it is unique. anybody who has acclimated to them will tell you the same, and if you had done so you would too. why in the world you think you know better than the peolple who have actually experienced them and done the work is anybodies guess. actually, i once did the same as you - i did so because i was stupid and ignorant ( speaking for myself......). then i shut up and went out on the road with them for 10 weeks. hey guess what? big difference - go figure. until you do the same your biases, theories, and self-styled expertise means very little i am afraid. do it, and then get back us like that cyclenews guy - say, he thought pretty much what all the other guys who have triied them thought !!! imagine that.

Interesting to note that the recently crowned IMC champion is now an avid PC'er...chatted at length with Raynard this week and he strongly encourged me to make the investment. His take on things is that your bike time may not improve dramatically but your run will - I will be fitting my PC's tonight!!!

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http://www.endurancesports.ca
Coaching and Training Camps

well we dot know why he wrote what he did, and did not write what he did not, do we? as i recall he started to win races - noted he was going as fast as before with a markedly decreased PE, and ran a PR 1/2 marathon on very little preparation. am i missing anything? not to be repetitive, but a guy can simply tell the difference, just like in freethrows, or swimming, or archery,or xc skiing - either you believe and give credit to those that do - or you think you know better sitting in your living room. anyway, winning races and going along at previous speeds under less effort and setting PR runs on minimal training sounds pretty good to me ( and whaddaya know, it ended up in apositive report from the testor!!) - once again, a fellow can sit at their computer and disect reports all day, or a fellow can go bust a$$ and find out.

I don't know if Ben Larsen tested himself on PC's or not. It would be easy for me to understand that he might find PC's to initially be detrimental to his speed during a race, because the pedal stroke REQUIRES the foot/pedal/crank to be raised, and that isn't the way most people seem to pedal, so the limiting factor in the test would be the ability to continue to raise the foot/pedal/crank...as soon as that fails, speed drops dramatically. It takes time to be able to do this. (On the other hand, if Mr. Larsen already does pedal in this manner very well, PC's wouldn't show much, if any, improvement anyway. Furthermore, I can see how a PC trained rider might benefit even further from Rotorcranks, but, not vice-versa.)

But, once again, you'd realize that IF you ever did the training, and wouldn't be even fielding the question. I'm all for people asking questions about something they want to learn about but haven't experienced. That's not your goal, though. Therefore, I'll call your snipes what they are.

On the other hand, I can see how Rotorcranks could help one's speed very quickly, even though I've never ridden them, I can understand it. Furthermore, I can believe people like Gary that actually HAVE ridden them.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

...because ttn, if these people KNEW (or remembered) how volatile YOU were, and your vehement denial that any new fangled gizmo was any better than just getting out and rding...perhaps they would take the opportunity to take Frank up on his PC Challenge.

Ah...I remember the days...of ttn actually COERCING Frank into debates...of facetious comments strewn hither and yon....of the HUNT to bash PC's.

...then 3 days after accepting the challenge, and a 100 mile ride...WHALLAH!

For those who continue to debate their effectiveness, I would concur with ttn's assessment. Until you go HONESTLY try a pair, then you have no credibility in your argument. Go try them, either as they are intended to be used, or how you can use them, and then HONESTLY report back. I think it's a well accepted idea that some people don't have the time nor patience to train/race with PC's the way they were intended. Thus, they may not seem the same results. Just report your training regiment, so others can see validate your responses which will then have more credibility to them.

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Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

I should have my highly detailed Rotor review up on the web next week, I think you all will be very interested in my 30 day experience with them.

I'll give a shout out when it's up

[/reply]
In the report on PC's Ben made the following
statement, " Seated climbing is no big problem----
because even on normal cranks there is a far more
even distribution of power"
What is the explanation for this?

are you really a troll?

indeed, craigster. and, not to go all " i used to walk 10 miles to school uphill both ways"...... on ya, but i must admit to some level of disappointment in the successors to my PC bashing throne. i mean to say - i used to deftly and dare i say effortlessly weave in such things as blasts on mr day's choice in hairstyle amongst the context of my anti-PC diatribes. (!!). where is the EFFORT, these days, i ask? if the best we get from the anti-PCers in the modern day is " well antequil didn' use them and he was pretty good", or " i wish that testor posted his tt splits" .....well, maybe we can declare the war won - or call it a draw with a wink like Arthur did with the black night in Monty Python after chopping off the knight's limbs . . . . . ." what are ya gonna do, BLEED on me? " :)

yah, that's it. a draw. come along, good knight's, let us continue on our quest. :) :)

In response to the Chameleon's question about giving PC's credit on good days, but blaming other factors on bad days, perhaps some clarification is required for him to understand my previous post.



Severe dilutional hyponatremia is a medical condition that can in extreme circumstances lead to death. When a 140 lb person gains 12 lbs, performance beyond that point is highly unlikely and as events showed me, highly unsafe. Being a stubborn 10x Ironman finisher, I solidiered on and finished. I cannot blame anyone but myself for my poor race day execution, messing up my nutrition and subsequently my performance. On this Ironman day, I did not get to realize the fruits of any efficiencies gained through PC training (or any of the training I did on the bike or run) due to poor nutritional execution.



I am not blaming outside factors for Ironman day and giving PC's credit for good performance at a PB Half Ironman. I am blaming/giving myself credit for both performances. I am just saying that the PC's assisted me to a PB at Tupper lake and poor execution by myself on Ironman race day, blew my performance ("self sabotage"). For the purposes of comparison, I've done 9 sub 11 hour Ironmans and this year went 12:30 by walking the last 6 miles due to hyponatremia on race day. Don't let this happen to you !

[reply]
I should have my highly detailed Rotor review up on the web next week, I think you all will be very interested in my 30 day experience with them.

I'll give a shout out when it's up [/reply]
[reply



Taking into account that you don't even know where
the 1 o' clock pedal position is or that the 5to6//11to
12 area is half of the dead spot area, your report
will be of little value. Any sensible person knows that
rotor can give you between 2 and 3 minutes of
extra pedaling time per hour. Its what you do
with that 2 or 3 mins, in other words the technique
you use that decides the gains in time trial time.

I have had some trouble posting but will try again as my internet connection has been acting funny.

I will combine a lot of comments:

1. It is wonderful to not be the only PC advocate in these discussions. Now all I need do is clarify and provide some additional data that i have.

2. Since Ben Larsen lurks here maybe he will butt in but I believe his review commented that the proof would come in time trial comparisons and he hadn't done any since he had the cranks, but would be doing so later. He was simply reporting his experience and impressions up until that time.

3. Regarding XC skiers. 3 weeks after I sent a pair to a certain winter triathlon world champ I received an order from him for his brother, to help him move up into the elite ranks of XC skiers. Doubt Rotor Cranks or Anetequile would help much there.

4. Regarding a certain Mr. Tissink's observations. He got them lastyear after IM Florida but he has only been using them "correctly" since Utah (when I found out what he had been doing and beggged him to try it my way). He hasn't enough time on them to see bike improvement but he does have the time on them to see run improvement. Based upon feedback I got after the race, he is so "convinced" I don't have to worry about him going back to the "old ways" any more. So, ask him again, after next season, about bike improvement.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Frank - Raynard was in no way critical of PC's and in fact agreed that he would still need more time on them to realise the true gains - like I said I will be fitting tonight - signed up for IMC 2004...

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http://www.endurancesports.ca
Coaching and Training Camps

One of the most amazing things to me about IMC is the number of people there who come up, not to do the race, but just to get in line after the race to sign up for the next year.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Perfection wrote: "In the report on PC's Ben made the following
statement, " Seated climbing is no big problem----
because even on normal cranks there is a far more
even distribution of power"
What is the explanation for this? "

with PC's the application of power is spread out all the way around the circle, not just on the down stroke. This is most evident to the user when climbing, when the cadence is low(er) and the effort is high(er).

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--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

I won a hill climb competition a couple of decades ago, so, for a big guy (compared to most climbers, I was then, and still do, weigh in the mid 180's), I climb OK. But, my first time up a hill on PowerCranks blew my mind. I was noticeably faster. Seated or standing. (Although, I never stand to go uphill in a race...too much energy expenditure for too little gain in speed for someone my weight.) Since riding on PC's I have NEVER been passed by someone while going uphill. Come to think of it, I've only been passed by 2 or 3 people in any race this year...and I re-passed those before the bike was over. But, that's partly due to starting in the old man's swim wave...the only people behind us are the newbies and I think the Athenas.

The past three races I've done I've had the best bike split of my AG, second best of my AG, and second best in the entire field...all followed by runs that averaged over 1 minute per mile faster than I've ever had in duathlons/triathlons. I've NEVER ridden this well in time trials in my life. I finished in road races this well twenty years ago, but, those weren't time trials.

My point is, I know how to ride and have done so for decades. I even place sometimes in 5k runs. But, since being on PowerCranks, my run was MUCH faster, almost immediately, and my biking became noticeably faster during races. I know how to train, and I know when something in my training is making a positive impact. PC's have coincided with the biggest leap in improvement I've ever had over all those years.

People don't have to believe me at my word, but, I'm going to post actual times over the past few years after I do my last race...which is next weekend, and interested parties that want to look up my race results for the past few years to verify what I post as being true can do so...it's public knowledge. PC's work for me.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

HOW DID YOU GET THAT PICTURE OF ME?!?!

(notice the bad puncuation? did mispell anything?)

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.