Please help me ride faster

May 6, 18 23:52

Post #1 of 42 (4732 views)

I think this is going to sound like a ridiculous question/problem, but I'm looking for any advice/suggestions/ideas.

Basically, for my entire triathlon 'career' I've always felt like I don't ride (in races) as fast as I 'should be' riding. I remember coming home from rides 10+ years ago and saying the same to my wife. I used to just chalk it up to being a mediocre cyclist/athlete (which I am), but I feel like there is something else going on and I can at least try to address (rather than just looking for new parents). And now that I've been riding for a couple of years with a power meter, trainerroad, and best bike split, I can at least quantify the issue a bit.

I'll lay out what happened in St. George as a case in point. My (fairly conservative) race place was to do the ride at about 76% FTP. I did a lot of time on the trainer over the winter and spent long periods at 80-85% FTP, so 76% should be a piece of cake. And yet, on race day, I ended up finishing the ride at 69%, 20+ watts below my plan. The whole time I 'felt' like I was riding at capacity, I felt like I was pushing the needed watts, but obviously I was not (I guess this is the opposite of the stereotypical well-tapered triathlete going out too hard on the bike). I've had this same situation is many many races, not just halves. In a few olympics and TTs last year, I wanted/planned to push 90%, but ended up at 80%. Don't get me wrong, I had a great run and a solid race, but I'm not a fast enough runner to be giving up 10+ minutes on the bike.

A couple of potential causes that I thought of:

1. I can hold the desired watts indoors, but not out: Not true. A couple of weeks ago I rode for 2:15 on the tri bike, glued to the aerobars, holding 77% and felt great.

2. My FTP is vastly different between TT and road bikes. Nope. Last year I did the same ~40min TT several times on both the road bike and the TT bike. Basically identical power numbers (but different times, of course).

3. Th swim is affecting me more than I want to admit. Possibly, but then why do I have these issues in TTs?

4. I'm over estimating my FTP. This seems like the simplest answer. But I have a very hard time believing that I could possibly complete the indoor workouts I have completed recently and be so far off. That is, I don't think I would be able to do a TR plan with my FTP set at 300 if it was really 250, I just think I would fail in workout after workout.

5. I have very different indoor and outdoor FTPs. Is that even a thing? I know different road/tri FTPs is a thing, but not indoor/outdoor.

Like I said, any ideas/suggestions are welcome. Thanks in advance.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 1:20

Post #2 of 42 (4698 views)

Different indoor/outdoor FTPs is definitely a thing. Though I think it's more common to be the other way around - people can hit watts when outside and motivated by other riders, hills, etc that they struggle to replicate when sat on a trainer staring at a screen. Temperature can also be an issue - again this normally works in favour of higher outdoor watts where you have fresh air, but if you're racing in warm/humid conditions but your indoor training is in a room with good air con and fans then that could be an issue?

Other factor might be how you train. Do you use the trainer in erg mode where the computer sets the watts and you just pedal along? If so, you may simply not be accustomed to holding the right wattage on your own.

Only other thought is that you're doing something in your race prep that is fundamentally different to how you normally train. Are you travelling a long way to these races? Maybe not getting in enough nutrition? Are you zeroing your power meter regularly both in training and racing? What's your tapering approach? One of my worst race performances was from overtapering - did no training at all for about 3 days before the race and then felt really sluggish, I get much better results from still training every day with some bursts of higher intensity work but overall reduced volumes.

If you've eliminated any causes in the race prep then all I can suggest is training more like you race to try and figure it out. Get out and do more race pace bike sessions outdoors. Maybe ride with a local tri or roadie club - nothing like a good group road ride to stretch your limits and ride at intensities you didn't previously know about!

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 2:13

Post #3 of 42 (4645 views)

Is 69% your AP or NP? If the former, what was your NP? Could be a pacing issue.. very easy to keep AP ~ NP indoors, not so much outside with hills.

Last edited by: knighty76: May 7, 18 2:15

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 2:23

Post #4 of 42 (4636 views)

What does your NP look like for the first 50% of the bike compared to the second 50%? Is the first half higher than the second or are you just not able to make your power targets from the start. Also, do you check your powermeter calibration on raceday?

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 4:41

Post #5 of 42 (4459 views)

what method / testing protocol are you using for FTP?

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 6:00

Post #6 of 42 (4362 views)

In a race you coast a lot: while descending e.g.
You will also do a decent bit of legal drafting: while overtaking.

Last edited by: longtrousers: May 7, 18 12:20

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 6:04

Post #7 of 42 (4352 views)

Do you ride the same types of courses as St.george at home? Holding AP to a certain percentage on a hilly course is significantly harder than most people think it is. You’ll almost always give up too many watts on the downhill to make it up on the uphills.

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 6:41

Post #8 of 42 (4306 views)

Were you formerly into another sport?

I suffer from similar issues but more distinctly as the races get longer. My brother has an exaggerated version of what you describe.

My brother was a former college wrestler and football player, did some MMA, and lots of lifting during those times. He was a badass. Because of that he has a big explosive capability. Very high top end speed in sprinting but will lose to me in anything longer than a 5k. Very high 1-5 min power but can’t match my 2hr power. He has a very high pain threshold and can sustain workouts because of that. If I increase his FTP by 20W and tell him to do Galena on TR, he is capable of finishing the workout at the assigned wattages. But his FTP isn’t that high even though he can do the workout on the trainer. He can suffer through it.

I really do feel that overall, the FTP on the trainer is a bit over estimated for outdoor racing. It is perfect for doing the workouts on the plan but you have to take it with a grain of salt. For racing, I deduct 10W from my FTP, and go 5% less than recommended. So 75% for HIM at FTP-10, 65% for IM.

It may be a tad conservative but I give up way too much time on the run when I blow up. So if I give up a few minutes on the bike then so be it.

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 6:56

Post #9 of 42 (4278 views)

Are you coasting the descents or hammering down them until you're spinning out the big gear? Why I ask, if you're spinning it out climbing up trying to keep your AP low for your NP % goal (which is a good thing) but you're getting up to 25-30mph on the down side then coasting, theoretically you're coasting earlier than you should, so you have a longer "powerless" segment in your ride, which could be skewing your numbers.

I mention mph on the downhill and not a power % because it seems a lot of AG's don't stop pedaling on downhills because they have spun out the 11 tooth cog and are now in a scenario to tuck low and aero, they are starting to go fast and stop pedaling because fast can be scary, or they are very eager for a break after the climb.

Regards,
J. Smith

Re: Please help me ride faster [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 9:20

Post #10 of 42 (4183 views)

cartsman wrote:

Different indoor/outdoor FTPs is definitely a thing. Though I think it's more common to be the other way around - people can hit watts when outside and motivated by other riders, hills, etc that they struggle to replicate when sat on a trainer staring at a screen. Temperature can also be an issue - again this normally works in favour of higher outdoor watts where you have fresh air, but if you're racing in warm/humid conditions but your indoor training is in a room with good air con and fans then that could be an issue?

Other factor might be how you train. Do you use the trainer in erg mode where the computer sets the watts and you just pedal along? If so, you may simply not be accustomed to holding the right wattage on your own.

Only other thought is that you're doing something in your race prep that is fundamentally different to how you normally train. Are you travelling a long way to these races? Maybe not getting in enough nutrition? Are you zeroing your power meter regularly both in training and racing? What's your tapering approach? One of my worst race performances was from overtapering - did no training at all for about 3 days before the race and then felt really sluggish, I get much better results from still training every day with some bursts of higher intensity work but overall reduced volumes.

If you've eliminated any causes in the race prep then all I can suggest is training more like you race to try and figure it out. Get out and do more race pace bike sessions outdoors. Maybe ride with a local tri or roadie club - nothing like a good group road ride to stretch your limits and ride at intensities you didn't previously know about!

Thanks to all for so many responses helping me get this worked out. You are right about the erg mode, that's how I ride the trainer. Might be worth a look at changing that up, at least for some rides. Of course, now that the weather is better, I'll be getting outside more.

I zero/calibrate my PM before every ride/race. I'm not sure that race nutrition would cause this, especially since it happens in training TTs and in local races as well. This race in St.G did require a bit of travel, but as I said, same results in local races as well.

Too much taper is an interesting idea. This week I did:
Normal training on tuesday (hard hour on trainer, four mile easy run)
travel on Weds, easy four mile run in evening
Easy two mile run and easy 1000 yard swim on thursday
Two mile run with one hard mile, easy 1000 swim on Friday
Race on Saturday.

I'm hopefully racing Victoria 70.3 in four weeks, might change up the taper.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Re: Please help me ride faster [knighty76] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 9:21

Post #11 of 42 (4179 views)

knighty76 wrote:

Is 69% your AP or NP? If the former, what was your NP? Could be a pacing issue.. very easy to keep AP ~ NP indoors, not so much outside with hills.

NP, I was quoting everything in terms of NP. My NP was 206 (shooting for ~230) and my AP was in the 170s.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Re: Please help me ride faster [Behan] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 9:25

Post #12 of 42 (4166 views)

Behan wrote:

What does your NP look like for the first 50% of the bike compared to the second 50%? Is the first half higher than the second or are you just not able to make your power targets from the start. Also, do you check your powermeter calibration on raceday?

Ooh, good idea, thanks, but that's not it. NP for first 1:20 on Saturday was 206, and 207 for the last 1:17. Yep, I always zero the PM.

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Re: Please help me ride faster [raulsan] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 9:41

Post #13 of 42 (4123 views)

raulsan wrote:

what method / testing protocol are you using for FTP?

My main test is 2x20 with 2 min rest in between. On a good day I average 300-305 watts for both intervals. In the past I've pushed this to 3x20 (with some help from some caffeine) but I haven't done that one recently.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Re: Please help me ride faster [jsmith82] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 10:18

Post #14 of 42 (4085 views)

jsmith82 wrote:

Are you coasting the descents or hammering down them until you're spinning out the big gear? Why I ask, if you're spinning it out climbing up trying to keep your AP low for your NP % goal (which is a good thing) but you're getting up to 25-30mph on the down side then coasting, theoretically you're coasting earlier than you should, so you have a longer "powerless" segment in your ride, which could be skewing your numbers.

I mention mph on the downhill and not a power % because it seems a lot of AG's don't stop pedaling on downhills because they have spun out the 11 tooth cog and are now in a scenario to tuck low and aero, they are starting to go fast and stop pedaling because fast can be scary, or they are very eager for a break after the climb.

Yep, I think this may be the winner here. I rarely hammer until I spin out the 53/11, usually opting to rest. For that reason, I rarely look at AP, and I think that having a VI close to 1.0 on a hilly course is really not the best way to ride it. I'm not really concerned with having power lower than my goal per se, what I'm actually concerned with is having my overall speed so much less, losing 10 minutes to my goal time. I know that those 'plans' I make with best bike split having me putting out much more power on the descents that I do/can, but I wasn't thinking that would make a 10 minute difference in my actual race time.

What's the right way to combat this? Go harder than planned on flats and climbs and then rest on the descent?

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Last edited by: CCF: May 7, 18 10:31

Re: Please help me ride faster [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 10:33

Post #15 of 42 (4045 views)

Grant.Reuter wrote:

Do you ride the same types of courses as St.george at home? Holding AP to a certain percentage on a hilly course is significantly harder than most people think it is. You’ll almost always give up too many watts on the downhill to make it up on the uphills.

Yeah, pretty similar, but this happens on all types of courses for me. Even on a stone-cold flat loop, I can't average higher than ~85% for 20 minutes or so (road or TT bike, doesn't matter). Maybe that's expected, but I'd like it to be higher.

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 10:33

Post #16 of 42 (4043 views)

Are you sure that your indoor powermeter (or Kickr) is close to equal with your outdoor powermeter? If your pedal-based PM reads the same on both, you're probably good to go, but otherwise, it's very real that your indoor powermeter may be like -5 to -10 watts high/low and the outdoor PM +5 to +10 high, with resultant discrepancy of up to 20 watts.

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 10:57

Post #17 of 42 (4002 views)

CCF wrote:

Grant.Reuter wrote:

Do you ride the same types of courses as St.george at home? Holding AP to a certain percentage on a hilly course is significantly harder than most people think it is. You’ll almost always give up too many watts on the downhill to make it up on the uphills.

Yeah, pretty similar, but this happens on all types of courses for me. Even on a stone-cold flat loop, I can't average higher than ~85% for 20 minutes or so (road or TT bike, doesn't matter). Maybe that's expected, but I'd like it to be higher.

How long is it taking you to get out of the water?

Re: Please help me ride faster [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 11:16

Post #18 of 42 (3976 views)

lightheir wrote:

Are you sure that your indoor powermeter (or Kickr) is close to equal with your outdoor powermeter? If your pedal-based PM reads the same on both, you're probably good to go, but otherwise, it's very real that your indoor powermeter may be like -5 to -10 watts high/low and the outdoor PM +5 to +10 high, with resultant discrepancy of up to 20 watts.

Good idea, but I use the same pm both indoors and out.

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Re: Please help me ride faster [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 11:25

Post #19 of 42 (3941 views)

Grant.Reuter wrote:

CCF wrote:

Grant.Reuter wrote:

Do you ride the same types of courses as St.george at home? Holding AP to a certain percentage on a hilly course is significantly harder than most people think it is. You’ll almost always give up too many watts on the downhill to make it up on the uphills.

Yeah, pretty similar, but this happens on all types of courses for me. Even on a stone-cold flat loop, I can't average higher than ~85% for 20 minutes or so (road or TT bike, doesn't matter). Maybe that's expected, but I'd like it to be higher.

How long is it taking you to get out of the water?

In a half? 30ish minutes, 32:14 this weekend (I'm not in very good swim shape). I was thinking that the swim was affecting me, it's a good theory, but then I would think I'd be better in TTs.

How do you train that? More swim bike bricks, obviously. Those are kind of tough for me, min 30 minutes to get out of the pool, change, drive home, etc.

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 11:43

Post #20 of 42 (3905 views)

I would focus on one thing at a time. Swimming a 32 in a half and not being in good shape is going to have a big effect on your bike time.

I never do swim/bike bricks, but for that long of a race if you’re not in good swim shape you want to be swimming it easy/moderate. It’s hard to swim Easy if you’re swimming 32 mins. Not judging I’ve been that speed in oly distance before, But you’re using a ton of energy to just get to the bike.

The fact that your NP for both half’s is relatively close makes me think you’re pacing fine your legs just are drained prior to getting to there.

Other idea are you taking a bunch of caffeine training but not racing? Or doing something different on the nutrition front.

If you have an actual FTP of 300 and you are having issues hitting 230 for that long something is wonky.

What distance time trials are you doing?

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 11:48

Post #21 of 42 (3883 views)

CCF wrote:

. I know that those 'plans' I make with best bike split having me putting out much more power on the descents that I do/can, but I wasn't thinking that would make a 10 minute difference in my actual race time.

I'm running into similar issues, I'm pretty much always under target power for a race & it seems to be more pronounced on hillier courses.

The BBS course simulations expect that I can put out >80% FTP on the downhills when traveling over 33mph, but with a 52x11 I'd need to spin over 90rpm to push anything at that speed...

Whilst I only spent 6% of my last race over 33mph there's all the time after those segments where BBS is expecting I can push significant power where I simply can't (without more gearing).

The last trainerroad podcast had a segment on hilly courses & from what I remember they lent towards a higher VI & more coasting being a better plan.

However whilst I can make up some of the deficit by going harder on the uphills, it's a different physical demand from the course simulation/training.

Re: Please help me ride faster [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 12:32

Post #22 of 42 (3815 views)

Also consider is(are) your power meter(s) calibrated correctly? Smart trainer vs on the bike power meter could produce variances in readings.

What you're FTP is is only really important in training. Sure, race day you have a goal, but you don't just stick to the desired FTP the entire race and expect good things. Sometimes you might be at 20 watts higher, 10 watts lower, it all depends on terrain and the elements. Warmer days than what you rode indoors on the trainer could affect your wattage on race day.

Make sure your training has variance to do work above and below FTP. You want to keep moving that up and they only way is to push past it on SOME workouts, not all. Race every workout and you won't improve as well, ride every workout at 80% FTP and you'll never change the mark, either.

I was having the same issues until I learned to REALLY suffer on the hard days and absorb the "easy" days. Ya, I was uncomfortable before and thought that was good enough... and now the hard days suck and for 60 minutes or more, it sucks and hurts. That's the way I have moved the mark.

Just some thoughts.

Ryan
http://www.SetThePaceTriathlon.com
http://www.TriathlonTrainingDaddy.com
I got plans - https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...dotcom#trainingplans

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 12:47

Post #23 of 42 (3783 views)

I feel your pain. Its my life as well, and I was a good racer. I raced in Italy for many years. Riding a good TT is a specific skill that not all riders excel at. Guys could beat me in a TT, but dropping them on the right parcours was not a big problem. It can be a mental thing, it can be that you don't have a good sense of pace, gearing..I think the course and selecting a course that fits your characteristics is crucial. If you don't climb well, then you will suffer on a hilly course. If you a big guy with high wattage and relatively aero, you'll do better on a flat course. Hitting numbers is a different discussion. I always thought of my FTP as where I was that day of the test, and to give me a redline on power output. But there are certainly days when my FTP pace just feels too hard. I's a bit of a guideline, but riding under your values is a complicated analysis. Long downhills, tail winds, lots of corners... you get the point.
In Italy, those who don't perform well in TT's are labeled as not knowing how to suffer. Maybe that's true, but I used to respond, I know how to suffer, and generally suffer longer time than my competitors. You are not unique. Keep suffering.

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 14:04

Post #24 of 42 (3709 views)

Did you mention how often you are on the basebars doing doing SST or threshold? This becomes a factor on race day. Also tempo power at a lower cadence, where the muscles are doing more work than your cardio system could be the problem.

Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]

May 7, 18 16:35

Post #25 of 42 (3625 views)

Another consideration, is that a triathlon TT is not a cycling TT. You can crush the bike only to have a horrible run. The best ride is in function of solid run.
Why don’t you start riding pure TT’s to learn the how how to dose your effort.
Also, a 70.3 on 140.6’s are not real TT efforts. They are long steady rides.

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