There is a difference between a $500k salary and $500k in total compensation (which, you know, is in the title of the article).

So how is that workout done? Is it just with an on screen character of Frodo or is there audio / video of him as well? I know there is the text box that is attached to each Z program, but how "interactive" is it, is my question.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This is kinda Frodo Friday workouts, he incorporates instagram live some of the time and answers Q's/interacts loads in the chat. However, for free riding on zwift you are 100% correct in that when free riding (which I do quite rarely as I'm normally racing or doing workouts or group rides) you get limited interaction. That said the zwift livestreaming scene is growing, for example Ed Laverack does great videos and livestreams with interaction and loads of training advice whilst doing group rides, sessions or races, and that contributes a large part to his living (alongside his partner working)
if a top level triathlete were to do that sort of thing it would no doubt be a good opportunity to grow as a brand (but also would be difficult to fit in around training/life etc if your not wanting to fully commit to it as part of what you do... and if you don't like sharing your numbers definitely not something to do)

the chat itself is quite interactive, as when the rider leader posts it comes up in the middle of the stream so is a different interaction to everyone else in the ride. However others may feel differently, I'm a big fan of zwift so may be skewed in my judgement.

I finally broke down yesterday and got on Zwift, after telling my athletes for 4 years I was going to get on there one day....sigh, guess that's what running in the rain, then hail, then sleet, then rain and finishing that run in the snow in Tucson will do for you. No way was I riding in that.

I could see where if someone did something like streamers do, with a live discord/chat, and produce great youtube videos I could see them making more money that way vs racing.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Peloton power and s&c are totally wrong. I was a part of a 24 hour indoor cycling challenge last January. My friend brought his Peloton and averaged 24.7mph over 3 hours. He bought a TT bike and we went riding in August. He was only able to manage 15mph for 29 miles with about 700' elevation. He got a wheel on smart trainer and was doing an average of about 15mph for a long time. I'm now seeing workouts around 20.7mph average and 18mph average. It seems the Peloton numbers were bullshit meant to pump you up.

Let's take Lionel or GTN for example here. I think Lionel has the largest youtube channel of any professional triathlete by far. Why youtube over twitch? Well it's an easier platform for the normies. I watch a few channels that do lives that are monetized. Part of the current monetization platform allows for the audience to do what are called "Super Chats" which is to pay the person/channel so that their chats are highlighted. There's also channel memberships that allow you to create your own emojis and give the person a unique identifier on chats and in the comments. I think Youtube did this because it Patreon was taking away some of their business but it was just an evolution of monetization. You can also do superchats on premiers too.

So you do your whole camera setup with zwift, obviously that will cost money. But I'm literally watching livestreams about bourbon where the guys are raking in between 500 on a bad night to 3k on a great night and all they are doing is sitting back and drinking bourbon and communicating with their "community". I've also seen a few smaller bands do this on a consistent basis and just rake in the dough.

So let's say Lionel does a zwift session every Thursday and he gets 1% of his followers to watch live in the chat. SuperChat enabled. I would bet that he could make a quick 500 every Thursday. Easy.

Also, with those live streams, it provides additional value and inventory to his sponsors that he can then upsell to his current sponsors or sell to a new sponsor.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I still remember the most truest of words I've ever heard when I first came into the coaching from Justin Trolle.....

"you can be the best coach in the world but if you can't connect with people, you won't last long as a coach"


Connecting with people is how LS can make $500 a night and I can point you to pro athletes that would make $47 dollars a night and they are better athlete than LS is. And some will say those athletes are failing at cashing in etc., and that they should do more to promote themselves and make money. But the point more is that if it's not in your personality, it's not really "worth it" for the athlete. Some are actually better off just sticking their head down and training only because they truly aren't personable enough to market.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I just pulled their Instagram and it's quite amazing. These people are completely ordinary in every way and some don't even look fit. I guess it's relatable for the masses and to most they probably do look way more athletic and fit than the average person. Mix that in with an eccentric personality and you have a celebrity Peloton coach.

I've seen this critique of Peloton, (or Spin class, Orange Theory, etc...) before and while I haven't done one of these classes I have seen people doing hill repeats and boot camps. These people aren't pushing to the max regardless of what the high fives, heavy panting, and motivational quotes would have you believe. Hence why burnthesheep says they are only doing 165kJ. They might be going above threshold for a minute or two at a time, which gets the heart pumping, sweat flowing, and a little bit of fatigue, but they just know what a max effort feels like and overall, the workout isn't so taxing to even begin to worry about "overtraining". Given they might only have 1hr (or 2hrs if you include driving to the gym, and the essential post workout Starbucks) it is probably more effective than what they would typically be doing, which is a 1hr "jog".

The Peloton case is interesting. I can't wrap my mind around the hardware costs considering you can buy a decent road bike and a smart trainer for the same amount and be able to ride outside in the summer. But the subscribers have done the "ROI" and it is cheaper in the long run than spin class. The bike industry has f*ed itself by being too intimidating and not creating a more reliable, lower maintenance product (oh, your cassette and chain are worn, which you cannot see unless you purchase the chain measurement tool, that will be $150 to replace those thank you very much).

That's also total comp and Peloton's stock is at $150 up from $25 at IPO (and probably even more from their last pre-IPO option/RSU grants). Base comp could be much closer to 150-200k with the difference made up in bonus structure and stock.

The value proposition of certain instructors isn't just in appearing on screen and giving a fun workout.

It's in the amount of customers they bring in and what those customers pay.

If some celebrity has a crapload of followers and gets lots of people on their workouts, they'll make more. It isn't that the value in the workout justifies the $500k at all. It's the value of the customers they drew in.

I know folks may disagree with it working that way, but that's how the world works.

If you're doing a telethon or fundraiser you don't make your "draw" that the local trash truck driver is going to speak or perform. You get some local personality like a local TV host, TV star, retired star athlete..........etc.......

Same deal.

One thing I do question about the whole "general fitness" industry though is leading people doing 200KJ of work in a spin class to believe they need to buy the same nutrition that full on athletes use. That's a freaking grift. They just ate/drank more to get ready and recover than the workout burned. Athletes need to consume what will allow them to perform in a way to generate specific outcomes. General fitness "workout more and lose some weight" is not the same.

I always thought it went back to the saying that one is in the form of exercising, while the other is in the form of training. IE- how many cyclists have a peloton vs how many peloton users don't cycle beyond now on the peloton or previously at the exercise bike at the gym?

Like is there a lot of cross over? And not that either is wrong, at our bike shop we sell both smart trainers + the whole indoor bike setup, and the dealer for said product essentially characterized it as that when we were talking about the whole "indoor bike" craze. Like I believe pelotons are what 4-5 months out of stock from when you order them now. Business is booming in all forms of cycling related inventory.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Most of the instructors are jacked and shredded though. I’m not sure which ones you feel look ordinary and unfit. Jenn Sherman isn’t as ripped as she once was but she’s in her 50s now.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

So I have this funny thing I do. I play the "name" game...like what is the personality of a name. My mom's name is Nancy- how does a small 4 year old make it in day care with nancy? Nancy to me is a total "adult' name. Take my name- Brooks.....I feel like Brooks is the perfect 12 year old with a baseball cap, some blond hair a few freckles. When I'm 56 years old, who the fuck is going to call me "brooks". It's just a funny little thought experiment I have had.

So when I read the other posts and saw peloton instructors w/ Kendall and Ally, that made me laugh. Those are the perfect peloton instructor names. Dexter for a dude would be the perfect name to kill peloton. But Tom? Tom should be doing my taxes. Margeret? Boooooring, go to the library.

#nameshaming

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

and here is the problem.. watts calculate calories burned. so many are thinking they burned twice as much and off to krispie kreme for them..

We're having a weird debate because we're triathletes. But 95% of people that go to spin classes on the regular, which is 70% of Pelotons target market, then add general home fitness types that were buying Beach Body or Insanity DVDs back in the day is probably the other 30%. The vast majority of their core customer will never set foot in a bike store. They'll buy their shoes from the Peloton store or from Amazon. The truly weird thing is the Look pedals, but Peloton is trying to sell a "premium" experience there.

Looking at Lionel's last Zwift livestream, he's definitely interacting with people in the chat. I don't think any of these guys need to "lead" classes. Just show what they're doing and interact/answer questions that come through. Which he was doing based on listening to it for a few minutes. He also has Super Chats enabled. There was a dude that did a $100 Super Chat. The key to making actual money on this however is to do it consistently, same time, same place, same day of the week.

ETA: Just watched Lionel's premier, had SuperChats enabled and Erin was in the chat along with Talbot. Add a few more mods in there to encourage people to mash the like button. But he made $35 bucks by Premiering and having a live chat.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I disagree. Peloton offers a wide range of workouts, from power zone to recovery rides and everything in between. Motivating people to want to ride everyday clearly is effective at turning someone into a stronger cyclist. You can devise a cycling program with the Peloton workouts and get very strong on the bike. It is not only high intensity.

It has motivated me to ride 7 days a week, some easy, some hard. Prior to having the Peloton, I would ride 3 days a week during the Winter because I was bored on the trainer and not enjoying myself.

You need to check your facts. That is not accurate, at least from what I have seen. My FTP measured on the Peloton is within 5 watts of my FTP measured with my power meter.

Agreed 100%. I have read this entire thread, and it still amazes me when people chime in with strong opinions and know nothing about the Peloton other than what they may have read somewhere online.

Of course motivation is key. If you were only riding 3 days a week and are now riding 7, of course you're going to be a stronger cyclist - though this would be true with just about any kind of exercise regime. Anything that gets you riding more (especially in winter) will generally make you stronger. Also: congrats btw on finding your motivator.

Sure, you could make a training program that offers the right mix of intensity - but I think we all know that this isn't what Peloton is offering. Their point is exactly that motivator that gets you from 0 to however many rides per week, or in your case 3 to 7. (and I write this as a Sufferfest subscriber who's made his own program because they're generally to much intensity)

Zwift does this. The photo is often random if you don't take photos during your ride, but they label the route you did and post up a picture of you in virtual land with the Strava activity.

Zwift also has the most popular group rides. Usually because the person leading them does a good job organizing it, wrangling the pack, and is somewhat more interesting a person than a block of wood.

In the full body workout world of group workouts in person, same deal. People find the time and instructors they like, and stick with them.

There has been almost no x-over between 'road cyclists' and the peloton spin crowd normally. I don't know if it's changing more recently, but for sure, in the entire history of Peloton, it does not attract regular outdoor cyclists/triathletes, and caters almost completely to the 'spin crowd', the vast majority of whom have literally zero interest in ever riding a bicycle outdoors.

My good friend who used to be my run training partner 18 years ago and who moved across the country and now has a new 2-year old, as well as added 20 pounds of BF due to life getting in the way of training, still wants to run but it's quite hard for him between the kid, life scheduling, and bodyweight. He still has absolutely zero interest in cycling outdoors, but he bought a Peloton with his wife half a year ago, and he absolutely loves it - and STILL has zero interest in learning to bike outdoors!

For sure. And that appears to be the top end.

But, frankly, none of these numbers surprise me. My girlfriend is a loyal Peloton user and she and her girlfriends LOVE some of the instructors. They definitely preach about the wonderful experience of classes with the unique and lively instructors and act as brand ambassadors to get their friends to buy Pelotons and to join them in classes. If you haven't watched or taken Peloton classes, I assure you that these people are personalities, not "spin instructors."

I have no idea what the pay arrangement is for the instructors, but we have to consider the volume of users and if they are paid based on views, like someone providing content on YouTube, then $500k isn't outrageous.

If I do 200 classes per year and make 4 cents per live viewer, and have 15,000 live viewers, that is $120,000.

Then if they paid me another 3 cents per viewer who watches the recorded class, I can easily get another 25,000 views. There's another $150,000.

Give me a small base salary before that (or not, it doesn't matter!), retirement benefits, a healthcare plan, and for only pennies per view I have compensation around $300,000.

Imagine if I do more classes and get more views. Bam. $500,000.

Again, I don't know their pay structure but my point is that for pennies per view they could make a lot of money, and for the value that they bring in terms of customer loyalty, they are worth every penny.

I agree on people chiming in about Peloton who have not tried it. I am a serious triathlete and have been in the sport for 30 years. My wife and I had the old Lemond trainers, which were great, but wanted to upgrade to a smart trainer, so we got a Peloton because we would both use it, we would not need two bikes set up in our limited pain cave space that already has a vasa and treadmill in it, and my wife really wanted the Peloton. Once we got it, I liked it, but still did most of my riding outside for the year plus that we had it and used the Peloton only occasionally. Then in the early fall I discovered the Peloton Power Zone workouts and they are a game changer. I suddenly realized that the Peloton is a great training tool for triathlon. I took the Peloton FTP test, and got the exact same FTP I had on my old computrainer in the mid-2000s. Which makes me think the watt readings are really accurate. Once you do the FTP test, the Peloton has your training zones from 1-7 set up in a box on your screen. I did steady diet of their power zones workouts which include endurance workouts in zones 2-3, power zone workouts with lots of zone 4-5 efforts and power zone Max workouts with zone 5-7 efforts. Anyway, in 3 months, I had a 30 watt improvement in my FTP. Despite being serious about triathlon, I've never trained like this before and instead relied on training by feel without a plan and just trying to put in as much volume as I could. The power zone workouts have been amazing as I am actually improving a lot. My heart rate is corresponding to the new zones, so the improvement is real. The Peloton feels very road like (I switched out pedals and saddle to what I use on road bike), it is quiet, it takes up little space, and you can get really fit for cycling or Tri on it. Meanwhile, my wife, who has done 2 Ironmans but does not want to compete anymore, absolutely loves it for the variety of different workouts she can do on it for general fitness. I know this is not quite what the original post was about, but see a lot of stuff in here poo-poohing the Peloton as a fitness tool not for real triathletes. I wanted to post this because that could not be further from the truth. Plus, I would love to have an hour and a half to workout everyday, but sometimes I have to work late or something comes up, and boy is it nice to be able to hop on the Peloton for 20 minutes and still get a targeted good workout in when I am super time-crunched. And still improve.